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Changing my tune!

I wouldn't want a component that obviously gives its own flavour to all recordings. I really like to hear and experience what the artist has created. Not just for the abstract "truth" reasons. I enjoy the distinct identities of various creations.
I would like that too, but I also recognize that I'll never hear it exactly as it was recorded. There are too many cooks adding to the broth! My goal is to hear as much as possible, and to enjoy it as much as possible. The Benchmark delivered the former very well, but faltered with the latter. The Denafrips doesn't seem to hide anything, but somehow makes things more pleasurable, more consistently.

I don't know how it does this, it doesn't seem to do it by hiding anything in the music. Instead it somehow makes everything more vibrant.
 
This is a puzzling thread. I am pretty certain that my Venus II is basically neutral and imparts very little ‘colour’ onto the music, other than sounding a bit more analogue yet detailed than my previous DAC (Mytek Brooklyn). It was definitely a clear step up from the Mytek but I wouldn’t really characterise it as having any overt colouration as compared to other DACs. Then again, different model and possibly the OPs system is more resolving than mine?
 
This is a puzzling thread. I am pretty certain that my Venus II is basically neutral and imparts very little ‘colour’ onto the music, other than sounding a bit more analogue yet detailed than my previous DAC (Mytek Brooklyn). It was definitely a clear step up from the Mytek but I wouldn’t really characterise it as having any overt colouration as compared to other DACs. Then again, different model and possibly the OPs system is more resolving than mine?
The more I think about it, the best descriptor is probably "vibrance" as compared to the digital processing of photographs. The Denafrips doesn't add more information, but rather elevates some things to make the it seem more rich and emotional. If you're not familiar with vibrance (versus saturation, which isn't so good), here's an explanation.
 
Keep both. One for enjoyment/hedonism, the other for realism/puritanism. Unless you are out of preamp inputs.
Yeah, that's my hope. The Benchmark has just two analog inputs: one for the Denafrips, and the other for the vinyl rig. I've also got a cassette deck that almost never gets played, and the turntable does a marathon session only every few months, so I can swap them occasionally.
 
@Mike Hanson - thanks for an interesting thread. Given the amount of patronising, rudeness, bad science and the like that any Objective/ Subjective debate apparently brings, it is pleasing to see a civilised conversation too.

I am not good at auditioning kit and describing what I hear. I have learned that it can take ages to work out what I am hearing. As a result, I have often asked musician friends to help review kit, having become confident that what they think after 3 tracks is usually what I find I think after considerably longer, even if I was definitely not agreeing at the time. Their ears may be just as bad as mine by now, but listening critically is a skill, and one that musicians are effectively trained for, while most music fans (like me) just want the experience.

"Fidelity to what?" also matters. With acoustic music from a few musicians, it may be that the 'real' experience really does sound as if they were in my living room. On the other hand, I just played Carmina Burana & The Rite Of Spring - listening to them live means (among other things) a very wide and vague stereo image. I also heard the surviving Rolling Stones at Twickenham fairly recently - it was great fun, and a good deal better than they were 30 years ago IMHO, but you wouldn't call it high fidelity to anything.

Given all that, I am surprised by how much high fidelity actually matters to me. I play more classical music now that I did 35-40 years ago, and more jazz. The obvious explanation is that tastes change, but I enjoyed live classical & jazz music even 40 years ago.

The change came from hi-fi, I think. The kit I had in 1985/90 worked pretty well for Bowie, Dylan, Cohen, Led Zeppelin and the Rolling Stones, but Stravinsky was chaos. Classical musician friends could listen on my RP3/ Creek 4040/ Heybrooks and hear what was going on whatever was being played, but I couldn't. Jump forward to my current kit, and it is all a bit easier, even for the cloth-eared.

The wider curiosity here is why fidelity matters so much to me, if I am not a great listener and want the most enjoyable experience rather than the delivery that is closest to the original sound for its own sake. My conclusion is that it I need all the help I can get in getting from the music as much as possible, and sooner or later good fidelity is needed for that.

Thus, I might be transfixed by the voice of Joan Baez/ Nina Simone/ Maria Callas on Linn Kans or ESL 63s, but the things they really don't do well in hi-fi terms will interfere with my enjoyment of lots of other music sooner or later. Similarly, I liked the sound of LP12s in the 1980s and agree that upgrades to bearing, chassis and power mean that it has less of that sound - but that lets through more of the music without removing the emotive core of why some of us want to play LPs even now.

I have also noticed that some imperfections are easier to spot without being more important than others. Thus, lack of bass below 50Hz, narrow stereo image or exaggerated mid-range are easy to spot, while just taking enough edge off that subtle timing information fails to reach your tapping foot is harder to spot. The fact that I own a pile of Naim boxes may be a hint as to which I think matters most to my own enjoyment of music.

You may be a good deal more skilled as a critical listener, but your DAC dilemma thus rings bells with me. If prolonged listening to a wide range of music shows that the Denafrips continues to be more enjoyable, I reckon guilt will fade and you won't use anything else - your living room is not a recording studio. However, if the exaggerations starts to wear and the Benchmark start to be a welcome relief, then that too is an answer.

If you don't yet have a definitive answer to that, then I am with all those here suggesting you keep both and play them a bit more. Do let us know which box you are using in 2-3 months!
 
Is the goal to reach a stable nirvana? Or is the goal to enjoy music, while learning about new equipment...
My goal was to have a system with no shortcomings that draw the attention, so that I can listen to the recording (defects included, if there are any) rather than to the equipment. It has taken nearly 50 years of bad choices and blind alleys to get there. The standard for comparison is large-scale live music in a venue with which I am very familiar (Symphony Hall, Birmingham) and I am very happy that my system finally meets it.

As for cooking... once perfected (in the judgement of others) I try to reproduce each recipe completely consistently. My salsa amatriciana has been cooked most weeks since the 1980s... If I get bored with the results, I find a new recipe...
 
@Mike Hanson - thanks for an interesting thread. Given the amount of patronising, rudeness, bad science and the like that any Objective/ Subjective debate apparently brings, it is pleasing to see a civilised conversation too.

I am not good at auditioning kit and describing what I hear. I have learned that it can take ages to work out what I am hearing. As a result, I have often asked musician friends to help review kit, having become confident that what they think after 3 tracks is usually what I find I think after considerably longer, even if I was definitely not agreeing at the time. Their ears may be just as bad as mine by now, but listening critically is a skill, and one that musicians are effectively trained for, while most music fans (like me) just want the experience.

"Fidelity to what?" also matters. With acoustic music from a few musicians, it may be that the 'real' experience really does sound as if they were in my living room. On the other hand, I just played Carmina Burana & The Rite Of Spring - listening to them live means (among other things) a very wide and vague stereo image. I also heard the surviving Rolling Stones at Twickenham fairly recently - it was great fun, and a good deal better than they were 30 years ago IMHO, but you wouldn't call it high fidelity to anything.

Given all that, I am surprised by how much high fidelity actually matters to me. I play more classical music now that I did 35-40 years ago, and more jazz. The obvious explanation is that tastes change, but I enjoyed live classical & jazz music even 40 years ago.

The change came from hi-fi, I think. The kit I had in 1985/90 worked pretty well for Bowie, Dylan, Cohen, Led Zeppelin and the Rolling Stones, but Stravinsky was chaos. Classical musician friends could listen on my RP3/ Creek 4040/ Heybrooks and hear what was going on whatever was being played, but I couldn't. Jump forward to my current kit, and it is all a bit easier, even for the cloth-eared.

The wider curiosity here is why fidelity matters so much to me, if I am not a great listener and want the most enjoyable experience rather than the delivery that is closest to the original sound for its own sake. My conclusion is that it I need all the help I can get in getting from the music as much as possible, and sooner or later good fidelity is needed for that.

Thus, I might be transfixed by the voice of Joan Baez/ Nina Simone/ Maria Callas on Linn Kans or ESL 63s, but the things they really don't do well in hi-fi terms will interfere with my enjoyment of lots of other music sooner or later. Similarly, I liked the sound of LP12s in the 1980s and agree that upgrades to bearing, chassis and power mean that it has less of that sound - but that lets through more of the music without removing the emotive core of why some of us want to play LPs even now.

I have also noticed that some imperfections are easier to spot without being more important than others. Thus, lack of bass below 50Hz, narrow stereo image or exaggerated mid-range are easy to spot, while just taking enough edge off that subtle timing information fails to reach your tapping foot is harder to spot. The fact that I own a pile of Naim boxes may be a hint as to which I think matters most to my own enjoyment of music.

You may be a good deal more skilled as a critical listener, but your DAC dilemma thus rings bells with me. If prolonged listening to a wide range of music shows that the Denafrips continues to be more enjoyable, I reckon guilt will fade and you won't use anything else - your living room is not a recording studio. However, if the exaggerations starts to wear and the Benchmark start to be a welcome relief, then that too is an answer.

If you don't yet have a definitive answer to that, then I am with all those here suggesting you keep both and play them a bit more. Do let us know which box you are using in 2-3 months!
Thanks for that fulsome post. I'll be sure to report back on my perceptions.
 
My goal was to have a system with no shortcomings that draw the attention, so that I can listen to the recording (defects included, if there are any) rather than to the equipment. It has taken nearly 50 years of bad choices and blind alleys to get there. The standard for comparison is large-scale live music in a venue with which I am very familiar (Symphony Hall, Birmingham) and I am very happy that my system finally meets it.

As for cooking... once perfected (in the judgement of others) I try to reproduce each recipe completely consistently. My salsa amatriciana has been cooked most weeks since the 1980s... If I get bored with the results, I find a new recipe...
You and I are wired very differently. :)

I virtually never use a recipe, winging it reach time with whatever elements feel right. It never tastes bad, and I occasionally knock it out of the park. It's somewhat frustrating when that happens, realizing I could never make that exact dish again. I would rather that, though, than dutifully march in step each time I prepared something.

In the same vein, I don't stress about playing a given piano work consistently. I express whatever I feel at that moment, and it makes me feel good. ;)
 
I have also noticed that some imperfections are easier to spot without being more important than others. Thus, lack of bass below 50Hz, narrow stereo image or exaggerated mid-range are easy to spot, while just taking enough edge off that subtle timing information fails to reach your tapping foot is harder to spot.

I think you are right!

Relating this back to the DAC2 - people talk about the "ESS glare", but I hear it as "ESS confusion" i.e. all the ESS DACs I've heard do all the hifi things well but fail to communicate the rhythmic nuances. For some reason, despite the technical superiority, it seems to be much more difficult to get this right with digital than with analogue.

To try to explain what I mean by this effect let's consider a choir of say 20 people. We can't actually hear 20 individual voices but if there were only 19 it would sound subtly different. Even for an excellent choir they will all be slightly out of time at some level and have different tonal balances but the sum of it all, with a great choir, is a wonderful sound. With a less good choir the individual voices can be heard more separately due to the wider range of being out of time and variation of tonal balance of the singers.


There is a tendency in hi-end hifi to want to hear all 20 voices separated out in space, which we hear as astonishing resolution and clarity. But, impressive as this is, it's not satisfying in the long term. In some ways it's like a less proficient choir!

I have no idea how ESS DACs with femto-second clocks etc. can do this separating/confusing thing, but to my ears they do it.
 
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I agree completely with the above statement. Enjoying listening to music is not the same as enjoying listening to (high end) hifi. Chord amp, Wilson speaker and Nordost cable dems in any show demonstrate this perfectly.
 


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