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Cartridge demonstration

Darren L said:
And why or how does it differ from having 3 or 4 turntables, tonearms, phono stages, CD players, amplification, sets of speakers or cables for dem.
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I for one wouldn't buy an ex-dem cart. for over half price. That cart would probably have indeterminate hours on it (can't think dealers methodically count mileage; likewise most users don't). I would buy amplification etc at a higher mark-up, because if it's cosmetically pristine, works well and comes with a guarantee, it's virtually as good as new. In one scenario the dealer would probably be making a loss and in the latter, breaking even.

This is my take on the difference and I wonder if I'm alone in this. A dealer already mentioned (a very good one) sent my friend an upmarket Lyra to mount and try on his Five. No obligation whatsoever. He didn't buy it, but went for the model above. This a few years ago, but it does happen, so who knows the provenance of the (then) £1500 cart. when it's finally moved on?
 
manicatel said:
What can you reasonably expect from a specialist dealer? Is it expected that a dealer should have 3,4, 5 or more carts of similar value on demo at any time?
I would guess that if this is the case, they’d be taking a big hit on items they can’t sell at retail price, having to sell it ex dem etc.
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Markup in the audiophile world is pretty substantial with with something one could even argue was close to ‘price fixing’ in many cases as it is considered to be a service industry rather than a simple closed-box sale, at least it always used to be in the Linn/Naim days of the ‘80s and ‘90s. As such I’d expect a dealer to be able to sell a low mileage well cared for dem model of high-end cart with a warranty at their own buy-in price fairly easily (i.e. about 35% off). The pro-audio world can allow folk to play guitars, synths etc and the markup there is a fraction what it is on high-end home audio!

I may be being unfair here, but to my mind if you are a prestigious high-end audio dealer you should really be prepared to demonstrate the stuff you sell. Otherwise why on earth wouldn’t folk go for the cheapest grey-import prices etc? You can typically get Japanese cartridges for half to to two thirds UK dealer price. Obviously there is a very good chance of getting hit with import duty, so add 20% plus a random £10 collection charge to that, but it’s still way cheaper.

PS For clarity I accept my knowledge is out of date, I’ve lived in the second-hand classic audio market for decades now so I’m commenting on the markups that were around in the prosperous days of the 1980s etc, it may well be tighter now for all I know. Ironically the only thing I’d ever want a dem of these days is a cartridge as that is all I buy new!
 
Yes, Mike and Tony , I wouldn't be buying a used or ExDemo cartridge either, but everything else I do normally buy ExDemo , secondhand, etc
 
Darren L said:
Well, yes and why not? That's if they wish to sell such items. And why or how does it differ from having 3 or 4 turntables, tonearms, phono stages, CD players, amplification, sets of speakers or cables for dem.
I'll accept that it takes a 'proper' dealer that knows what they're doing but other than that I don't see a difference, all ex dem stock is normally sold off at a discount from full retail, that's the norm, indeed from my experience Demo stock is bought at a reduced price in comparison to 'trade' price to start with.
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Because a used or demoed cartridge will lose a LOT of money whereas ex demo amp for example far less in percentage terms, and an amp can retain that value if on demo for 2 or 3 years, because nothing wears out, whereas a cartridge does wear out and if used, even lightly, value drops faster. That's my guess. It would be lovely if we could hear cartridges in our own system...oh wait...we can...just 'do a Tony', buy cheap from a Japanese importer, try them and move them on after a few hours use here in the UK...you may not take a loss at all baring a few quid for postage. And you get the demo in your own home. One other thought...cartridges do 'run in'. A cartridge in a dealer just from the box will not sound like the cartridge you have in your deck a few weeks later. Anyway, good luck.
 
Rockmeister said:
Because a used or demoed cartridge will lose a LOT of money whereas ex demo amp for example far less in percentage terms, and an amp can retain that value if on demo for 2 or 3 years, because nothing wears out, whereas a cartridge does wear out and if used, even lightly, value drops faster. That's my guess.
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Fair enough comment and guess though I would of thought that the value of ExDemo equipment whether cartridge, amp or speakers ( or anything else for that matter) would vary greatly depending upon the brand and on the dealer rather than on the component type or category.
To be honest it's very rarely I seen ex dem cartridges up for sale, I'd suggest any savvy dealer uses the exchange / re-build or retipping service offered by the manufacturers.
 
Rockmeister said:
A cartridge in a dealer just from the box will not sound like the cartridge you have in your deck a few weeks later. Anyway, good luck.
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That really wouldn't be ticking ANY boxes, either for dealer or potential customer.

Darren L said:
To be honest it's very rarely I've seen ex dem cartridges up for sale, I'd suggest any savvy dealer uses the exchange / re-build or retipping service offered by the manufacturers.
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True; very few over the years, but I doubt they'd refurbish, esp. with manufacturers (costly) as this doesn't really make commercial sense. A re-tipped etc. cart. doesn't have the cachet in selling that the cost might suppose. I certainly wouldn't buy a re-tipped one, but some manufacturers (Koetsu, e.g.) just send back a new cart., in effect, at vast cost; that's okay.
 
The only thing resembling a cart demo I'm aware of was the Ortofon "tour" they did a year or so back where they had some popular models available to listen to at a dealer, still not much use due to kit/surroundings etc. I'm not sure what you're supposed to glean at these sort of things.
 
No way in a million years can any dealer be expected to do this! Especially when wanting to bring your own arm board and arm.... Yeah I can just see dealers wanting to spend two hours or so fixing a cart to a fixed head arm, fitting it to arm board, setting up deck suspension, dressing arm lead then setting up VTA, overhang, tracking weight and bias and then repeating this for each cart you wish to hear... leaving say 4 £2000 carts as now part used ex dem stock and risking damaging the most delicate part of a vinyl playing system.

The best you can expect, and this is how it was back in the day when I visited hi fi shops, is that they may have demo examples fitted to a variety of popular TT's and arms and these suffice for anyone wanting to audition that TT, or arm, or cart. ie back then many would have an LP12 with an Ittok and Asak set up and probably say a Rega planar 3 with something like A&R P77 or Nagaoka MP11. I'm going back to before CD here when vinyl was the primary source and some dealers would have say 8 or so of the most popular "What Hi Fi" recommended TT's ranging from a Dual 505 or Sansui SR222 to the likes of LP12 or PT and with commensurately priced popular arms and carts. Even then they would very rarely be willing to remove the Asak from their demo LP12 and replace it with say a Koetsu you wanted to hear!

In this day and age of vinyl being a niche product you have no chance!
 
Mike Reed said:
By implication, N.A.'s arm-boards do NOT correctly fit? My two are fine.
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Probably more likely that the 'odd' (read rare) arm choice means that a suitable armboard isn't available.

Both my Jelco and Rega fitted very precisely on the Interspace.
 
Mike Reed said:
By implication, N.A.'s arm-boards do NOT correctly fit? My two are fine.
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No, not at all Mike, it was both cheaper and quicker for me to turn an armboard on the lathe and then into the drill press, yes I had to get a mate to do the machining of the slots on his Bridgeport. I'm sure NA could have done a fine job of machining the alloy. As Myles points out they wouldn't have the armboard to 'fit' the Thales.
 
Do you fancy a Phasemation PP-300, if so Ammonite will loan one. Do you want to hear the differences between Linn, Lyra and Dynavector cartridges then Cymbiosis will do that for you on their LP12s. This is about as good as it's going to get irrespective of what anyone thinks a dealer should or shouldn't do I'm afraid. BTW other dealers may do other things but I reference these as I am aware of their offering.
 
Darren L said:
I'm sure NA could have done a fine job of machining the alloy. As Myles points out they wouldn't have the armboard to 'fit' the Thales.
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Alloy? Think mine are wood or composite. They'll also supply blanks, I believe, either for 9"/10" (the same board) or 12".
 
Mike Reed said:
Alloy? Think mine are wood or composite. They'll also supply blanks, I believe, either for 9"/10" (the same board) or 12".
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Mine is an inferior NA; the Interspace JR, but it has an aluminium milled armboard with interchangeable collars for different arm pillars.
 
scotty38 said:
Do you fancy a Phasemation PP-300, if so Ammonite will loan one. Do you want to hear the differences between Linn, Lyra and Dynavector cartridges then Cymbiosis will do that for you on their LP12s. This is about as good as it's going to get irrespective of what anyone thinks a dealer should or shouldn't do I'm afraid. BTW other dealers may do other things but I reference these as I am aware of their offering.
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Not really the LP12 with any tonearm is going to be quite different from any NA TT & any tonearm.

Mike Reed said:
Alloy? Think mine are wood or composite. They'll also supply blanks, I believe, either for 9"/10" (the same board) or 12".
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myles said:
Mine is an inferior NA; the Interspace JR, but it has an aluminium milled armboard with interchangeable collars for different arm pillars.
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Yeah, both armboards I have are alloy, same as Myles, I am going to try and get a piece of Irish bog oak to fabricate an armboard.
 
How do the NA dealers demo their turntables? With a cartridge attached presumably?
You couldn’t perform a demo otherwise.
Do they all just use the cheapest cartridges to minimise their losses, rather than one to match the performance of the turntable?

Kevin
 
Darren L said:
Not really the LP12 with any tonearm is going to be quite different from any NA TT & any tonearm.
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Yes but that wasn't my point. My point was that that's what I know that's on offer and unless you can find a NA dealer doing the same it's that or nothing. So far I haven't seen many other options other than buying blind and I can't see how a comparative listen using LP12s is worse than nothing.
Obviously if you're happy buying blind the whole discussion is moot.....
 
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