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Brexit: give me a positive effect... XIV

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Incidentally, when Heath lied us into the EEC in 73 I believe we had the biggest fishing fleet in Europe. We also had 'greater trade' with much of the rest of the world, all of which was slung away, to the very considerable detriment of many of our former trading partners, for membership of the Great European Utopian Project. What we had to gain I'm not entirely sure. The enforced and environmentally utterly destructive CAP and CFP, and the right for the Germans to flog us their cars more easily than they hitherto could. Oh, and the 'right' for those who can afford to do so to buy houses and live in Europe for more than 90 days a year sans visa.
(...)
The EU demanded the annexation UK fishing waters as part of the price of entry, and Heath agreed to it. The very considerable further powers that were handed over in Maastricht, Amsterdam and Lisbon were handed over without my consent. No major UK party offered to either to stop further intergration in their manifestos, or to offer referendums on the substantial handovers of sovereignty enshrined within those treaties, which were thus unconsensual. They are the reason why we are where we are today.
Your regular concern for the fishing fleets of the world is touching.
  • Fishing fleets are down in most places, not just the UK: overfishing for centuries, bigger boats, technology...
  • Fishing is a fraction of a percent of British economic output*, and I would have thought Global Britain would have, erm, better things to do. Such as develop exports of goods and services it is really good at.
  • All trade deals are a negotiation, where concessions get exchanged, bits of sovereignty swapped, etc. Presumably this is what Heath was on to, and Thatcher (of Single Market fame), Major, Blair and others. Considering Britain's economic development in the 80s, 90s and early 00s, it wasn't such a bad idea.
  • You forget to mention, for some reason, the inconvenient fact that a good part of the reduction of the British fishing fleet in recent decades was caused by British owners selling their fishing rights to Dutch, Danish and other EU companies.
As for the non-fishy part of your post:
- Your consent for Maastricht etc. was assumed, as the MPs you voted for (assuming you voted Conservative) supported these treaties with their votes in Parliament. Isn't that how Britain's fine parliamentary democracy is supposed to work?
- Trade with the rest of the world "slung away": how do you explain that Germany now sells 15 times more goods to India than the UK? Even mighty Belgium sells more there, and France about the same. Did Ted Heath hand over the catalogues, price lists, and secret blueprints for Bedford lorries?

*and as said by others, a high percentage of British seafood is sold to the EU already. Where else would Global Britain rather sell it?
 
In other words, Brexit Britain to become a failed state by Christmas https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...means-motorists-face-week-fuel-shortages.html
My favourite bit-
“Boris Johnson stands ready to review matters if there is any deterioration”. I mean, how much worse does it have to get before he gets his reviewing finger out?

He’s still got the Shakespeare biography to finish and Carrie wants him to kick back with the family at Chequers so I don’t see how he can fit in any more standing ready.
 
My favourite bit-
“Boris Johnson stands ready to review matters if there is any deterioration”. I mean, how much worse does it have to get before he gets his reviewing finger out?

He’s still got the Shakespeare biography to finish and Carrie wants him to kick back with the family at Chequers so I don’t see how he can fit in any more standing ready.

Boris Johnson: missing in inaction
 
This sort of manipulative yet vacuous comment is very tiring. When I voted for brexit I certainly did not accept 'foreign meddling', foreign meddling having been notably prevalent in the attempts to stop the UK from voting to leave the EU, and indeed to subsequently overturn the result. The lies that I didn't accept were the lies that took us into the EEC in the first place, and the lies that have been consistently told by both the EU and UK politicians to advance the project, without consent, ever since.

I don't know where in the recent narrative I've referred to the vote as democratic, but I will certainly do so if I wish to.


When a foreign power funded leave it made leave Putins bitch.

Same with dear Rupes, sold his citizenship to buy a newspaper and has the ones he has hear preach “sovereignty”. Being a bitch to either is bad enough but to both, strewth, not I would like to point out that it applies to you.
 
Just back this evening from a 24hr road trip to the UK. The good part is I made it from Cairnryan down to OnethingAudio to collect a lovely pair of their fully refurbed 63's with pro grills. Steve and Ron are always a pleasure to deal with. Brexit and concerns over whatever excise duties/taxes etc might await me if I went the Holyhead route but also the NI route gave me better ferry times but a humungous long drive both ways.

Anyway getting back on thread. Whilst driving down I listened to Radio 4 and heard Monsieur Simon Clarke telling the BBC presenter that Brexit is not the reason for the HGV driver shortages or the issues with deliveries of Petrol and Diesel. Funny though driving a long the motorway the number of advanced signs advising no Diesel or No fuel at all available throughout the journey was quiet startling. Clarke also advised it was a euro wide problem. Eh whilst I accept there are issues with HGV driver shortages around the continent Ireland or NI have no such problems. I am just back from Tenerife and there are no shortages there either. Be that food or fuel. These one trick pony Tories just blather out untruths naturally. The presenter kept pressing him but really until the UK public wake up and demand their politicians are held to account when they behave like this nothing will change.

Sorry I think you are fxcked as a country. Predominantly every engagement I had was met with about 10-15% of people wearing masks. In Tenerife all the local population are continuing to be sensible and look to protect their fellow citizens. Ireland is the same. Nowhere is perfect and we all have people who behave poorly but Jesus the UK is definitely an outlier similar probably only to the US.

Unfortunately I think there are more EV types in the UK then Psb's. An unearned sense of entitlement and seeming incapability to make the right decisions or assess what they are throwing away.

On a lighter note Boris's fairy bridge to NI is such a laugh. When you look at the road from around Carlisle to Cairnryan and the desperate need to at least improve that to dual carriageway standard and Bojo is talking about spending imaginary billions on a bridge to NI. Nobody bats an eyelid. Same with Mogg in parliament making the HGV licence easier to get and taking out the reversing requirement! The men in white coats should have immediately stormed in a taken him away. With the amount of HGV's on UK motorways I would be avoiding those roads over the next number of years. It is a criminal act in my opinion but also gets back to how anybody could take advice from this individual. Whatever he is for you need to run 100mph in the opposite direction.
 
My favourite bit-
“Boris Johnson stands ready to review matters if there is any deterioration”. I mean, how much worse does it have to get before he gets his reviewing finger out?

He’s still got the Shakespeare biography to finish and Carrie wants him to kick back with the family at Chequers so I don’t see how he can fit in any more standing ready.

Heard this said about T***p, but it applies equally to Johnson: Elect a clown and you get a circus.
 
Heard this said about T***p, but it applies equally to Johnson: Elect a clown and you get a circus.

It just continues. How can such an idiot be in charge of a country or get elected with that majority. Spouts nonsensical drivel and looks like a bad clown actor at a kids birthday party. How low can it go? I listened to Starmer yesterday on the radio. At least he is normal and has some gravitas. Please God hopefully you have an election soon and people wake up and see sense in England.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/1001/1250233-brexit-northern-ireland-protocol/
 
It just continues. How can such an idiot be in charge of a country or get elected with that majority. Spouts nonsensical drivel and looks like a bad clown actor at a kids birthday party. How low can it go? I listened to Starmer yesterday on the radio. At least he is normal and has some gravitas. Please God hopefully you have an election soon and people wake up and see sense in England.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/1001/1250233-brexit-northern-ireland-protocol/

#CHAOS
#PutinsPoodle
 
Currently watching Withnail and I for the umpteenth time and the opening scene sums up Brexit in a nutshell, bleak despondency ;)


"I'm Mr Blue
I'm here to stay with you
And no matter what you do
When you're lonely - I'll be lonely too"
 
Your regular concern for the fishing fleets of the world is touching.
  • Fishing fleets are down in most places, not just the UK: overfishing for centuries, bigger boats, technology...
  • Fishing is a fraction of a percent of British economic output*, and I would have thought Global Britain would have, erm, better things to do. Such as develop exports of goods and services it is really good at.
  • All trade deals are a negotiation, where concessions get exchanged, bits of sovereignty swapped, etc. Presumably this is what Heath was on to, and Thatcher (of Single Market fame), Major, Blair and others. Considering Britain's economic development in the 80s, 90s and early 00s, it wasn't such a bad idea.
  • You forget to mention, for some reason, the inconvenient fact that a good part of the reduction of the British fishing fleet in recent decades was caused by British owners selling their fishing rights to Dutch, Danish and other EU companies.
As for the non-fishy part of your post:
- Your consent for Maastricht etc. was assumed, as the MPs you voted for (assuming you voted Conservative) supported these treaties with their votes in Parliament. Isn't that how Britain's fine parliamentary democracy is supposed to work?
- Trade with the rest of the world "slung away": how do you explain that Germany now sells 15 times more goods to India than the UK? Even mighty Belgium sells more there, and France about the same. Did Ted Heath hand over the catalogues, price lists, and secret blueprints for Bedford lorries?

*and as said by others, a high percentage of British seafood is sold to the EU already. Where else would Global Britain rather sell it?

Thank you for the somewhat patriarchal, nay characteristically patronising, lecture, Prof. Its a shame that you spoiled the mood by succumbing to the temptation ('concern for fishing fleets etc') to be snide, but never mind, I'll join the party; love the bullet points. Thank the Lord that pfm doesn't accommodate PowerPoint presentations.

Your first two and final bullet points I'm fully aware of, but thank you.

Trade deals aren't concessions where vast tracts of sovereignty go in one direction only. As far as I'm aware no other country on earth submits its national waters to another entity, to take just one, topical, example.

The EU Treaties anyway have nothing in common with mere trade deals. Consent for Maastricht was certainly assumed, and quite wrongly, which is why it was fought so bitterly both without, and within Parliament, where a petulant PM threatened to resign if his party didn't follow him.

Maastricht was part 1 of a handover of sovereignty so substantial as to break the entire concept of Parliamentary democracy, handing vast tracts of UK competences to an unaccountable and fundamentally undemocratic set of institutions in Brussels. Lisbon was part 2, the split between two time-separated Treaties being because the EU knew darn well that what they were doing would be unacceptable to the European electorates and they would never have got it through in one hit. As it was they had to play dirty to get Lisbon through, the initial draft Constitution having been rejected by two European electorates, and the Lisbon treaty itself by another, and Gordon Brown was so ashamed of putting his signature to it that he refused to do so in front of the cameras, allegedly secreting himself in a janitors cupboard in the magnificent Jerónimos Monastery, after all the other dignitaries had gone to lunch.

So substantial a break with the Parliamentary tradition were the two treaties that they should have been put to a plebiscite, because they fundamentally broke the historic and hard won constitutional link between the electorate and the elected, whereby power is vested in the Crown-in-Parliament by the people.

On your final point, when I referred to Britain's substantial trade with the rest of the world I was referring as much to old friends that were well and truly fecked over when we went into the EEC. Germany's substantial success as an exporter is another subject entirely, but suffice it to say that it has been leveraged by that country's highly focussed mercantilism, in which it has ruthlessly gamed its position in the EU, and specifically the Euro, at the very considerable expense of the Southern European economies.

To return to your little bit of snidery at the beginning, my concern is not for the 'world's fishing fleets', and it is disingenuous and without foundation for you to say so. Fishing is a disproportionately powerful lobby within the EU (and I include historically in that the UK's NFFO), which extracts well over £1bn a year in EU subsidies in order to maintain an industry at somewhere around 3 times sustainable capacity, and which would otherwise run at a loss. In close to a dozen countries the value of the subsidy actually exceeds the value of the catch. In a reversal of earlier policy, a high proportion of this subsidy is directed towards larger and more damaging vessels of over 24 metres, and in modernising older vessels to make them yet more efficient. In setting annual quotas the EU routinely ignores the scientific advice which it itself commissions. The net result is that European waters have suffered years of overfishing. In large parts of the med there are no longer any fish at all, with, for example, stocks of anchovies in the Western med disappearing. Following a period of recovery, cod stocks in the North Sea are now once more endangered, and so on.

As a result of this, EU fleets are now having to go much further to find fish. To this end the EU subsidises a fleet of, if my memory serves me right, 32 factory ships which ply the coast of west Africa. In order to buy off the governments whose territorial rights extend into those waters, the EU has hosed over €1bn over a decade into those countries in order to ameliorate the damage to the subsidence fisheries and processing industries in those coastal regions. I'll leave it to you to guess whether any of that cash ever actually reaches the affected communities.

These EU fleets also extend their operations into the Indian Ocean in pursuit of tuna, which is as a result rapidly becoming depleted, again affecting small scale fishing industries there.

I'm sorry if this offends your (and TheDecameron's) sensibilities as regards 'faux' concern for the 'poor African farmer', or in this case, fisher, and I understand that you yourselves couldn't give a shit provided that all is cosy as regards the good old EU, in an I'm alright Jackass kind of way, but there it is. The CFP, formerly with and now without the UK's input, is an outrage, and Boris's grubby little deal with the EU allows it to continue to extend its destructive reach into UK waters.

Sorry, another long post, but I can't stand being patronised.
 
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Your posts distort, bend facts and sometimes just make things up. It could be seen as patronizing ("I've understood things you morons haven't even seen") but it's beyond that. You have the most distorted view of the EU treaties that I have ever come across in an educated person. But I'll try to avoid bullet points in deference to your allergies.

My first point was not snide, actually: you do seem to have a romantic attachment to certain parts of the economy that is quite out of proportion to the economic, social or cultural contribution they make. Fishing is one of these (farming being another, perhaps more understandable one). 1 billion is pocket change in the real world, whether it is per year or over a decade, a small fraction of what the UK has spaffed on a useless Track and Trace.

To your other points, briefly:
- Other EU countries share their fishing territories with each other and with other countries (e.g. Norway), so your first point is obviously incorrect.
- Britain got a lot from Maastricht in particular and the EU in general, economically. So it went both ways.
- Brussels is not unaccountable and undemocratic (I won't refer to previous exchanges as that seems to irritate you)
- Maastricht did not break parliamentary democracy or make it meaningless, except in your mind perhaps. Look around Europe: plenty of Parliaments still going about their business. Are they blind to what you have spotted? Or do you believe only the UK has a functioning parliamentary democracy?
- Won't go into Germany and the euro again, but how would that help Germany sell 15 times more to India than the UK, which has its own currency? Same question versus France and Italy, which don't benefit from the deep historical connections with "old friends". Not being snide here, just curious about your thought process.
- Old friends f*cked over? Which would those be? The Australians? 1.7% of the world economy on the other side of the planet, doing very well for themselves selling raw materials to the Chinese and backed to the hilt by the US. Agriculture is 2% of their GDP, selling to Asia and the US. They certainly don't need little old UK. Who else: New Zealand? South Africa?? India??? They've all moved on from the Empire.

I think you just have a romantic, sepia-tinted and anglo-centric view of the world which was incompatible with sharing elements of sovereignty with other European countries. The good news is that your lot has won, and the UK has left. Now left to the tender mercies of other world powers and whatever Boris and his team of clowns can negotiate with them. Ah yes, "we can always vote them out".
 
The dual conceits of “we’ll trade with the Commonwealth again” and “the Anglosphere is the future” are vintage Goldsmith-era UKIP. There’s nothing there to speak of, the cupboard’s empty. The most delicious irony landed this week- Johnson kept the flights coming in from India while the Delta variant spread, so as not to offend his host’s sensibilities as he pursued his trade mission to the country. This week India has said it will quarantine all arrivals from the U.K.
 
Another Sunlit Uplands update, this time from the FT:

"The [industry] executives came to the June meeting armed with a list of potential fixes: temporary visas to recruit overseas HGV drivers; action to clear the Covid-19 driving test backlog; extended driver hours; and a campaign by the government to urge retired British HGV-licence holders to get back behind the wheel.

But junior transport minister Lady Charlotte Vere was reluctant to act, according to two people present at the meeting. Instead she told the executives that there was “a perception that the industry is crying wolf” and that the government did not want to “create panic”.

“The irony is they could have done all this quietly and no one would have been any the wiser,” says James Bielby, chief executive of the Federation of Wholesale Distributors, whose members collectively represent £30bn in turnover and was present at the June 16 meeting. Instead they just doubled down on Brexit and said ‘find the solution yourself’.”

And the Guardian:

"Thousands of Germans who live in the UK have been written to by the government asking them to drive lorries in an attempt to ease the UK fuel crisis, even though the majority have never been at the wheel of an HGV. They were included in a 1m-letter mass mailing that also tried to recruit ambulance drivers to get behind the wheel of lorries."

Spray and pray Brexit.
 
"Thousands of Germans who live in the UK have been written to by the government asking them to drive lorries in an attempt to ease the UK fuel crisis, even though the majority have never been at the wheel of an HGV. They were included in a 1m-letter mass mailing that also tried to recruit ambulance drivers to get behind the wheel of lorries."
From that Independent article:
“One 41-year-old German man, who received two copies of the letter at his London home on Friday morning, one addressed to him and another for his wife, told The Independent. "We were quite surprised,” he said. “I’m sure pay and conditions for HGV drivers have improved, but ultimately I have decided to carry on in my role at an investment bank. My wife has never driven anything larger than a Volvo, so she is also intending to decline the exciting opportunity."
 
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