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Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition)

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FWIW:
Why bring up TTIP six years after its demise? It was killed in 2016 by Trump's accession, but even before that there were fundamental misgivings among the governments of many member states, including large ones like Germany and France, and more broadly in European public opinion. In 2019 the EC declared it "obsolete and no longer relevant": Trump is gone, but TTIP has not been resuscitated. You seem to consider it an evil treaty that the evil Commission was pushing hard onto an unsuspecting public. An opposite view is that there were so many fundamental disagreements between what the EC wanted and what the US was willing to give, and vice versa, that an agreement was just not possible. It is an example of a monster trade deal being debated and ultimately shelved because too many things were wrong with it. Being a positive sort of pessimist, I see it as a sign that the institutional framework (Council, Commission, Parliament) + various NGOs worked, just about. Other opinions abound.

Other opinions do indeed abound, and I've already explained at length, and more than once, why I brought it up.

CAP: this is a bit of a relic from the early days of the EEC*, but it is still a useful tool for accession countries and for ensuring that small/medium farmers don't get totally wiped out. It redistributes money from richer countries to poorer countries, and ensures the EU produces enough of its own food. It is a large chunk of the EU's budget (around 40%) but this share is declining and the mechanisms have been reformed several times already. There is some abuse of the system, as always when large subsidies are available, but transparency has improved. CAP is very small as a % of the EU's GDP, but it still seems to excite Brexiters in a predictable way.

I don't know enough about the CFP.

(*distant but vivid memories of being grilled on the subject of "benefits of the CAP" by two ruthless examiners in 1979 - I waffled my way through to an average mark.)

You have this way of breezily dismissing points that I have made by quoting a few facts and figures, whilst completely sidelining or ignoring my points.

The CAP dates from the earliest days of the EEC, and it's origins lie in France demanding it as a payoff for accepting tariff-free German manufactured goods. Its aims, as with much EEC/EU rhetoric, were noble enough - food security, protection of rural livelihoods and easy prices for the consumer. In its first 3 decades it supported farmers by subsidising modernisation, intervention buying and high external tariff walls. The effect was to increase the pace of the transfer of labour to capital, create massive overproduction, and cut off the European market to 3rd country producers. The resulting food mountains were often dumped onto external countries, further pauperising their own producers - powdered milk was a particularly notorious example - and enriching middlemen. Farmers were paid to grub up woods and hedges, drain marshland and pipe ditches and drainage channels, destroying thousands upon thousands of hectares of irreplaceable habitat, and the chemical pesticide, herbicide and fertiliser industry employed the agronomists who directly advised farmers. The resulting environmental carnage created virtually barren prairies, destroyed soil structure, created toxic runoff into rivers and seas, and has been blamed for the high incidence of cancers amongst agricultural workers.

Following the Uruguay GATT round between, I think, about 86 and 93, during which the Australian and Kiwi Cairns group succeeded in getting the EU's punitive external tarrif and high intervention subsidies reduced, the system of production subsidy was halted, and the policy turned to area payments incumbent upon increasing degrees, through CAP reforms, of environmental improvement, with greater subsidiarity to the member countries. However this system continued to favour area payments, massively advantaging big landowners. This was supplemented by so-called Pillar 2 Rural Development Schemes, which helped farmers diversify by giving, for example, payments to convert redundant buildings to rural business and holiday lets, or, as in the case of one of my own suppliers, convert a former dairy farm in Dorset into vineyard. However, the single farm Pillar 1 area payment remained, and remains, the largest subsidy.

In the latest CAP round, which came into effect a short while ago, the SFP has been supplemented by a greater qualification requirement to address environmental and greening incentives, though the degree to which this is having a positive effect is shown to be very limited. Many farmers were, in 2020, claiming greening cash that they already qualified for prior to the incentives, and farm checks run to about 1% of claimants. It is pretty much business as usual.

My own sister, who I love dearly, and her husband, farm around 1800 acres of arable land in Essex. In 2019 their total payments ran to a cool £160,000. In 2020, the final year of EU derived subsidy, this increased to £225,000 due largely to greening incentives. For 10 years they ran the farm organically, and when they reverted to conventional farming they continued to plant hedges and trees, maintain wide field boundaries - initially under the Countryside Stewardship Scheme - and to use composted recycled Garden waste, and, dare I say, well-rotted human waste (Thames Water is a major supplier) to fertilise and improve soil structure, so they essentially already qualified for greening payments despite having not previously received them, at least in their current form.

Their lifestyle is, in summary, a great deal better than that of your average Cumbrian or Auvergne Hill farmer.

The CAP remains inefficient, massively bureaucratic, wasteful, and somewhat directionless, and the degree to which it places the gaping maw of capital over both the environment and labour, highly controversial at best.

And even when this country was still in the EU, you, and I, and Steve, f1diddlededee, TonyL and TheDecameron had absolutely no say in the laws that created and maintained it, and no sanction over the unelected officials responsible for it. Zilch. Jackshite. Sweet Fanny Adams.
 
I missed the race bit.

Jesus!

You're slipping?

The more you think about it, the more Brexit resembles Putin’s invasion of Ukraine- “we hold all the cards, we’ll get everything we want, they’ll be beggin us”.
instead- bogged down in the mud six years later, multiple damage, no progress and they’re fighting among themselves in the ranks

Mmmm. Its only a couple of days ago that you gloatingly exhumed some comment that I'd made way back, in which I'd carelessly referred to the EUSSR.

Do you lack self-awareness, or are we just subject to different rules?
 
Jesus!

You're slipping?



Mmmm. Its only a couple of days ago that you gloatingly exhumed some comment that I'd made way back, in which I'd carelessly referred to the EUSSR.

Do you lack self-awareness, or are we just subject to different rules?
More a case of Brexit Britain playing by different rules. As someone else observed - a Turnip Monarchy. It’s leader rendered an international laughing stock. He hasn’t got Brexit done, his ‘deal’ is disposable and he holds illegal parties, one the night before the Queen’s husband of 73 years’ funeral.
 
Other opinions do indeed abound, and I've already explained at length, and more than once, why I brought it up.



You have this way of breezily dismissing points that I have made by quoting a few facts and figures, whilst completely sidelining or ignoring my points.

The CAP dates from the earliest days of the EEC, and it's origins lie in France demanding it as a payoff for accepting tariff-free German manufactured goods. Its aims, as with much EEC/EU rhetoric, were noble enough - food security, protection of rural livelihoods and easy prices for the consumer. In its first 3 decades it supported farmers by subsidising modernisation, intervention buying and high external tariff walls. The effect was to increase the pace of the transfer of labour to capital, create massive overproduction, and cut off the European market to 3rd country producers. The resulting food mountains were often dumped onto external countries, further pauperising their own producers - powdered milk was a particularly notorious example - and enriching middlemen. Farmers were paid to grub up woods and hedges, drain marshland and pipe ditches and drainage channels, destroying thousands upon thousands of hectares of irreplaceable habitat, and the chemical pesticide, herbicide and fertiliser industry employed the agronomists who directly advised farmers. The resulting environmental carnage created virtually barren prairies, destroyed soil structure, created toxic runoff into rivers and seas, and has been blamed for the high incidence of cancers amongst agricultural workers.

Following the Uruguay GATT round between, I think, about 86 and 93, during which the Australian and Kiwi Cairns group succeeded in getting the EU's punitive external tarrif and high intervention subsidies reduced, the system of production subsidy was halted, and the policy turned to area payments incumbent upon increasing degrees, through CAP reforms, of environmental improvement, with greater subsidiarity to the member countries. However this system continued to favour area payments, massively advantaging big landowners. This was supplemented by so-called Pillar 2 Rural Development Schemes, which helped farmers diversify by giving, for example, payments to convert redundant buildings to rural business and holiday lets, or, as in the case of one of my own suppliers, convert a former dairy farm in Dorset into vineyard. However, the single farm Pillar 1 area payment remained, and remains, the largest subsidy.

In the latest CAP round, which came into effect a short while ago, the SFP has been supplemented by a greater qualification requirement to address environmental and greening incentives, though the degree to which this is having a positive effect is shown to be very limited. Many farmers were, in 2020, claiming greening cash that they already qualified for prior to the incentives, and farm checks run to about 1% of claimants. It is pretty much business as usual.

My own sister, who I love dearly, and her husband, farm around 1800 acres of arable land in Essex. In 2019 their total payments ran to a cool £160,000. In 2020, the final year of EU derived subsidy, this increased to £225,000 due largely to greening incentives. For 10 years they ran the farm organically, and when they reverted to conventional farming they continued to plant hedges and trees, maintain wide field boundaries - initially under the Countryside Stewardship Scheme - and to use composted recycled Garden waste, and, dare I say, well-rotted human waste (Thames Water is a major supplier) to fertilise and improve soil structure, so they essentially already qualified for greening payments despite having not previously received them, at least in their current form.

Their lifestyle is, in summary, a great deal better than that of your average Cumbrian or Auvergne Hill farmer.

The CAP remains inefficient, massively bureaucratic, wasteful, and somewhat directionless, and the degree to which it places the gaping maw of capital over both the environment and labour, highly controversial at best.

And even when this country was still in the EU, you, and I, and Steve, f1diddlededee, TonyL and TheDecameron had absolutely no say in the laws that created and maintained it, and no sanction over the unelected officials responsible for it. Zilch. Jackshite. Sweet Fanny Adams.
Breezily dismissing your points (the way you dismissed my bit on TTIP, no problem) may be better than inflicting 5 paragraphs on everybody here with the same intent. But here goes.

I'm aware of how the CAP came about, and of the pitfalls and impact of industrial farming. I was even involved for a few years with selling expensive machines to the more affluent sort of farmer around Europe (mostly dairy): I found the Brits were way ahead of most other Europeans when it came to industrializing farming. So your several paragraphs on the subject were only moderately useful to me.

I'm not saying the CAP is great, but I've always been a little puzzled by the hostility it generates in various quarters, including amongst people that benefit from it. Your family seems to embody the contradiction in one way. At the other end of the scale, I know you know that there are thousands of poor farmers who work incredibly hard, and can't pay themselves even the minimum wage. Some are small, others are larger but knee-deep in debt. The CAP does help them to keep afloat, barely. They all complain about it, too. In an ideal world, some body would devise a system that focused payments on the poorer farmers without blatantly discriminating against the larger farmers AND solved world hunger while still preserving the interests of farmers outside Europe AND preserved the environment AND made benefits fraud impossible AND ensured the resulting system was feather light and responsive AND eliminated all waste. The EU is not that clever.

I'm happy that your sister's business is planting hedges and trees again (who removed them in the first place, and why?), and I assume that if they were collecting subsidies to the extent you describe, they had correspondingly high overheads and were producing a lot of food, plus ticking a lot of the right boxes. I believe that the British farmers unions are making sure that the CAP is replaced with something vaguely similar, now that the UK has left the EU, and I trust that she will continue to be successful.
 
And even when this country was still in the EU, you, and I, and Steve, f1diddlededee, TonyL and TheDecameron had absolutely no say in the laws that created and maintained it, and no sanction over the unelected officials responsible for it. Zilch. Jackshite. Sweet Fanny Adams.
And now this country isn't in the EU, you, and I, ET, and Steve, TonyL and TheDecameron have absolutely no say in the laws that create and maintain it, and no sanction over the unelected officials responsible for it. Zilch. Jackshite. Sweet Fanny Adams.

Although a donation to the Good Law Project might sometimes help and make you feel better.

If you'd like to give me an instance of having to stand impotently by while a law was made pre brexit, and conversely an instance of how you have been able to get laws you want put on statute, and uncooperative officials sanctioned, post brexit, I'm sure you'll find us convinced by your argument. Otherwise, well, illusory about covers it.
 
My personal opinion is to ensure that the trillions offshored in the Caimans won't come under EU scrutiny.
I don't believe that Brexit had anything at all to do with what was claimed or has primarily been talked about.
That was certainly a powerful motivator for some of the movers and shakers behind Brexit. Others were probably more motivated by the idea of turning the UK into something even more like the US.
 
You have this way of breezily dismissing points that I have made by quoting a few facts and figures,

60872958.jpg
 
More a case of Brexit Britain playing by different rules. As someone else observed - a Turnip Monarchy. It’s leader rendered an international laughing stock. He hasn’t got Brexit done, his ‘deal’ is disposable and he holds illegal parties, one the night before the Queen’s husband of 73 years’ funeral.

So you're saying the PM lacks self awareness too. I think we can all accept that, but I'm not sure that it's appropriate for you to use him as your excuse.
 
Breezily dismissing your points (the way you dismissed my bit on TTIP, no problem) may be better than inflicting 5 paragraphs on everybody here with the same intent. But here goes.

I'm aware of how the CAP came about, and of the pitfalls and impact of industrial farming. I was even involved for a few years with selling expensive machines to the more affluent sort of farmer around Europe (mostly dairy): I found the Brits were way ahead of most other Europeans when it came to industrializing farming. So your several paragraphs on the subject were only moderately useful to me.

I'm not saying the CAP is great, but I've always been a little puzzled by the hostility it generates in various quarters, including amongst people that benefit from it. Your family seems to embody the contradiction in one way. At the other end of the scale, I know you know that there are thousands of poor farmers who work incredibly hard, and can't pay themselves even the minimum wage. Some are small, others are larger but knee-deep in debt. The CAP does help them to keep afloat, barely. They all complain about it, too. In an ideal world, some body would devise a system that focused payments on the poorer farmers without blatantly discriminating against the larger farmers AND solved world hunger while still preserving the interests of farmers outside Europe AND preserved the environment AND made benefits fraud impossible AND ensured the resulting system was feather light and responsive AND eliminated all waste. The EU is not that clever.

I'm happy that your sister's business is planting hedges and trees again (who removed them in the first place, and why?), and I assume that if they were collecting subsidies to the extent you describe, they had correspondingly high overheads and were producing a lot of food, plus ticking a lot of the right boxes. I believe that the British farmers unions are making sure that the CAP is replaced with something vaguely similar, now that the UK has left the EU, and I trust that she will continue to be successful.

My brother in law has replaced hedgerows and woodland on three farms that he either currently or has in the past owned over the last 30 odd years. On two of the farms they were grubbed out by previous owners under EEC incentives in the 1960s and 70s, on the third by a construction battalion of the USAAF when they built an airfield on it in 1943. I suspect he defines the modern description of a good farmer, as he manages to combine efficient and productive arable farming with high environmental values - well maintained hedges and wide field boundaries upon which wild flowers and fauna thrive. Much of his income, though, as with all farmers in this area in close proximity to London and the transport network, derives from an ever-expanding estate of 'units'.

I didn't dismiss your comments on TTIP so much as comment that you had dismissed my own as being somehow irrelevant, as the negotiations had been closed down 8 years ago, which itself completely missed the point that I had already twice made at some length. I wasn't going to do it again!
 
And now this country isn't in the EU, you, and I, ET, and Steve, TonyL and TheDecameron have absolutely no say in the laws that create and maintain it, and no sanction over the unelected officials responsible for it. Zilch. Jackshite. Sweet Fanny Adams.

Although a donation to the Good Law Project might sometimes help and make you feel better.

If you'd like to give me an instance of having to stand impotently by while a law was made pre brexit, and conversely an instance of how you have been able to get laws you want put on statute, and uncooperative officials sanctioned, post brexit, I'm sure you'll find us convinced by your argument. Otherwise, well, illusory about covers it.

Which 'unelected officials' make our laws now that we are out of the EU?

How would a donation to the GLP 'make me feel better? I feel fine.

I've given you quite a range of examples of laws made without any real democratic mandate pre-brexit, and set out at length how it was done. Post brexit we have a greater degree of say over who creates legislation by virtue of the ballot box, and the process is imbued with a far greater degree of transparency without the EU to act as a shield behind which our politicians can hide whilst they conduct the work of their lobbyists. I acknowledge that it doesn't quite feel as though this is the case due to the shenanigans of the current government, but you must be able to see that they are incredibly exposed in their attempts to hoodwink the electorate. There is at least one well stuffed thread entirely devoted to it on this forum.
 
The Irish Times:
“Mr Donaldson defended his stance – which has been condemned by the other main Northern parties – saying he had “sought a mandate on the basis of sorting out the protocol” and he was “not going to go back on my word”.

He never got his mandate, the pro- EU agreement parties did. Which way will Boris jump? The prerequisite being that he saves his own political skin and **** everyone else.
 
My brother in law has replaced hedgerows and woodland on three farms that he either currently or has in the past owned over the last 30 odd years. On two of the farms they were grubbed out by previous owners under EEC incentives in the 1960s and 70s, on the third by a construction battalion of the USAAF when they built an airfield on it in 1943. I suspect he defines the modern description of a good farmer, as he manages to combine efficient and productive arable farming with high environmental values - well maintained hedges and wide field boundaries upon which wild flowers and fauna thrive. Much of his income, though, as with all farmers in this area in close proximity to London and the transport network, derives from an ever-expanding estate of 'units'.

I didn't dismiss your comments on TTIP so much as comment that you had dismissed my own as being somehow irrelevant, as the negotiations had been closed down 8 years ago, which itself completely missed the point that I had already twice made at some length. I wasn't going to do it again!
Greater love hath no man than he lay down his hedgerows.
-EV, fighting the German hegemon since 3 Sept 1939.
 
My brother in law has replaced hedgerows and woodland on three farms that he either currently or has in the past owned over the last 30 odd years. On two of the farms they were grubbed out by previous owners under EEC incentives in the 1960s and 70s.
That was very forward-looking of them, considering the European Communities Act was only signed in 1972, and the UK only joined in 1973.
 
Ha, true. It was late. Peak devastation was definitely 1970s. By 1980 there wasn't a lot left standing on many local farms.
 
Greater love hath no man than he lay down his hedgerows.
-EV, fighting the German hegemon since 3 Sept 1939.

I trust you 'hung your flag your EU flag out of your window or balcony on Europe Day yesterday, took a picture of yourself with the flag and posted it on social media with the hashtag #EuropeDay, or even took it out for a bike ride', as apparently recommended in an internal EC memo?

Oh, I remember, you're not keen on flags, are you. Tut-tut.
 
Ha, true. It was late. Peak devastation was definitely 1970s. By 1980 there wasn't a lot left standing on many local farms.

Yes it was devastating to produce cheap, plentiful food for nations brought up on shortages. I'm not sure the comfort of years of not having to endure food shortages and high prices even after rationing, is a great perspective. Mind you, we might well get the chance to experience or witness that with all of what is going on now and it will be interesting to see what impact that has on priorities such as hedgerows.
 
Yes it was devastating to produce cheap, plentiful food for nations brought up on shortages. I'm not sure the comfort of years of not having to endure food shortages, high prices even after rationing is a great perspective. Mind you, we might well get that chance with all of what is going on and we'll soon see how high hedgerows figure on the scale of priorities for people in that situation.
Still, we got our blue passports ( and racial purity) back. Mustn’t grumble.
 
Yes it was devastating to produce cheap, plentiful food for nations brought up on shortages. I'm not sure the comfort of years of not having to endure food shortages and high prices even after rationing, is a great perspective. Mind you, we might well get the chance to experience or witness that with all of what is going on now and it will be interesting to see what impact that has on priorities such as hedgerows.

As the CAP rewarded production, it generated vast overproduction of some commodities - I'm sure you recall the various 'mountains' of intervention foods. The wine was turned into industrial alcohol, the butter flogged off cheap to the Russians when it turned rancid, and the milk powder was dumped on southern hemisphere countries, bankrupting their own dairy farms. Its debatable that it even made food cheaper, due to the tarrifs of up to 200% that were imposed upon third country imports. The latter of course had the side-effect of impoverishing the farming sectors of those countries, but then why should we worry about them, as long as we're alright, Jack. I mean Steve.

And it wasn't merely the loss of hedgerows, it was far-reaching, long term and sometimes permanent ecological and environmental devastation.
 
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