B&W Foundation Duo
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manicatel
pfm Member
They sound very decent & look cool, but & it’s a significant BUT the app is rubbish & they’re way over priced for the performance. They really need the matching sub, but that adds another chunk of £££. Not sure how much longer B&W will persist with them, since they were recently bought out by Sound United.
Unless you can get them at a knock down price & are prepared to faff a bit with the app, I’d look elsewhere.
Unless you can get them at a knock down price & are prepared to faff a bit with the app, I’d look elsewhere.
ciderglider
pfm Member
I have a Formation Flex, which is the runt of the Formation litter. I don't find the app too bad, but don't use the app much anyway. Be aware that if you don't have access to one of the streaming services supported by Formation you have to connect to it through Bluetooth. It does support AptX HD, so it is high quality Bluetooth.
manicatel
pfm Member
No, don’t own them, but have heard them at a B&W dealer a couple of times, as I was potentially interested in them. As I get on well with the dealer, they gave me info about them, most of which turned me away from the idea.
I think to get the best out of them, you’d probably need to run Roon ( no bad thing, I love it) but if you don’t already have Roon, it’s another cost on top of the price of the speakers to add on.
The concept is great, the heritage of B&W likewise, the cosmetics are lovely, assuming you like the modern look. However, I think the execution of the idea is poor.
At the right price & in a modern, minimalist style apartment etc, running Roon, yea, I can see the attraction, but I still think they need the Sub.
Only my opinion though!
dspatterson
pfm Member
I've heard them a couple of times, in a non perfect situation tbh ie in the av dept of my hifi retailer in free space on either side if a massive TV, and thought they sounded...... amazing, couldn't believe what was comming out of such a small device.
Thanks ciderglider. I am aware of the limitations which come without adding the formation Audio hub. I would add this at point of purchase if I press ahead as I am subscribed to both Tidal Hifi and Quobuz Hi-Res and certainly would want to use both.
DS Patterson, thank you for your impression. It seems to agree with most others.
Manicatel, I appreciate your reply. I fully get that the product is not for everyone and the limitations of the app (and speaker features, or relative lack of them) has crossed my mind and, I got to be honest, are the reasons I have not committed yet. My Kef's will need a sub, oddly enough not for listening at higher volume but for quieter, late night play.
This would push the cost near the Foundation Duo, hence my interest. As for the software, I sometimes think that should be left to specialists in the field and not Hifi companies. Perhaps they do tender this out to others but it certainly seems it is sometimes pushed out to early and we are the field testers. I know Kef did and it is only now the user experience is what I would have expected in the beginning of such a product. - B&W have apparently acknowledged this and promised future development and maturity. I can only guess and hope they are true to their word.
You touched on value (or lack thereof) for the Duo. I guess its relative, depending on from which side you look at it. Some see good value in a 30 watt/channel, no frills Class A amplifier that costs over £2000 or a set of speakers at £4000. They may be, I can't be particular but I am looking at a good quality stand mount from a company with heritage and experience which includes apparently good amplifiers, some (at the moment limited) room correction and true wireless operation with little compromise on sound quality if some reviews are to be believed.
I like the concept and looks, otherwise I wouldn't consider them but appreciate input and experience from others before I make a decision.
DS Patterson, thank you for your impression. It seems to agree with most others.
Manicatel, I appreciate your reply. I fully get that the product is not for everyone and the limitations of the app (and speaker features, or relative lack of them) has crossed my mind and, I got to be honest, are the reasons I have not committed yet. My Kef's will need a sub, oddly enough not for listening at higher volume but for quieter, late night play.
This would push the cost near the Foundation Duo, hence my interest. As for the software, I sometimes think that should be left to specialists in the field and not Hifi companies. Perhaps they do tender this out to others but it certainly seems it is sometimes pushed out to early and we are the field testers. I know Kef did and it is only now the user experience is what I would have expected in the beginning of such a product. - B&W have apparently acknowledged this and promised future development and maturity. I can only guess and hope they are true to their word.
You touched on value (or lack thereof) for the Duo. I guess its relative, depending on from which side you look at it. Some see good value in a 30 watt/channel, no frills Class A amplifier that costs over £2000 or a set of speakers at £4000. They may be, I can't be particular but I am looking at a good quality stand mount from a company with heritage and experience which includes apparently good amplifiers, some (at the moment limited) room correction and true wireless operation with little compromise on sound quality if some reviews are to be believed.
I like the concept and looks, otherwise I wouldn't consider them but appreciate input and experience from others before I make a decision.
manicatel
pfm Member
As far as app development is concerned, I much prefer the Hifi company to have its own, assuming it’s done well. Bluesound, Sonos & Naim for instance.
A lot of companies use 3rd party apps & so they can’t react as directly & swiftly when users report issues. Rather than sorting it all in-house, they have to report to the app developer & make a case for an update to be issued, which takes longer to do.
Stuff such as the Play-Fi app, used by a few different Hifi companies could be a pita compared to bluesound for example.
The earlier version of the KEF wireless speakers needed 2 apps, one for set up & one for music selection etc didn’t they? Very poor.
A lot of companies use 3rd party apps & so they can’t react as directly & swiftly when users report issues. Rather than sorting it all in-house, they have to report to the app developer & make a case for an update to be issued, which takes longer to do.
Stuff such as the Play-Fi app, used by a few different Hifi companies could be a pita compared to bluesound for example.
The earlier version of the KEF wireless speakers needed 2 apps, one for set up & one for music selection etc didn’t they? Very poor.
After much deliberation I have now ordered a pair of Formation Duo's plus the Formation Audio Hub for connection options.
I held back with the speaker stands as I don't really like the look of them and I have a pair of sturdy stands. If required and if I decide to keep the B&W's I may get them.
My Kef LS50 Wireless II, which I like a lot, will stay for the foreseeable future and used in another room (or return to main room duty if the Formation Duo's don't work out)
Should that happen I will have to think again.
I held back with the speaker stands as I don't really like the look of them and I have a pair of sturdy stands. If required and if I decide to keep the B&W's I may get them.
My Kef LS50 Wireless II, which I like a lot, will stay for the foreseeable future and used in another room (or return to main room duty if the Formation Duo's don't work out)
Should that happen I will have to think again.
They look smaller/sleeker than on photos. Each one about the same weight as the Wireless 2.
I don't have proper stands yet so will wait until then.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/M14k85ei7pAEJEWK8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tXBWpZW99ZVzKV7c8
I don't have proper stands yet so will wait until then.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/M14k85ei7pAEJEWK8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tXBWpZW99ZVzKV7c8
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I now had a few days to play around with the Formation Duo, in direct comparison with the Wireless II's.
I start with some minuses and go to the good stuff later in a separate message, there are quite a few.
Please also note, so far I have not used the Formation Audio, the optional Hub to connect more sources. I will cover this separately. The below is simply streaming through the app. I do not use Roon.
1. Volume control steps are too big (unless I've missed a trick but there is not much to play with in the simple app). At lower volume there is not enough scope for adjustment. They should double the available steps, at least!
2. There is no off 'switch'. B&W simply say there is no need to ever turn them off. - They do go automatically in to standby after no signal is received after a while but as odd as this may seem, I like an 'off button', even if it's only in the app. Little things matter and add to user enjoyment.
3. The whole of the Class D amplifier section, the base of the speaker, gets rather warm approaching hot. Far more so than the Kef's with their dedicated heat sinks. This may or may not bode well for the longevity of electronic components within. Heat is usually the enemy so we'll see. I am surprised though considering the topology. I will buy a suitable thermometer this week to get accurate readings but for now I will leave it at I never had a hifi component that was running hotter. One possible explanation is that the base section of the speaker also includes the 5 or so antennaes and router to form the Duo's own Mesh network.
4. The app/s. Currently there are 2 and they are neither as comprehensive or intuitive as KEF's. They work and that is all I can praise them for. -
There is no Room Correction or any other niceties for that matter such as an option to determine cut off-frequencies for subwoofer integration. Perhaps this option only appears when connecting a sub? - I hope so as this really is a must in a product like this! Literally the only things you can adjust are Volume, bass & treble. Volume in-App adjustment, apart from not being fine enough can seem clumsy on occasions. With the KEF's you get a remote, here you don't. Everything is app controlled and B&W has work to do. - For nearly 4 grand I expect more ... including Room Correction.
There was an update a few months ago which added ... Alexa. That was it. - Although B&W say they are continuing to improve the app, it all seems that they stopped doing where it matters a year ago. Not good enough, especially for a product that relies entirely on its app.
5. Packaging. I am all for environmental friendliness but B&W have gone a little too far. - I know £4k is small change in the high end but if CA Audio can do better with £400 products I want something a little nicer when spending 10 times this. Its a carton box with a couple of Styrofoam panels and the speakers wrapped in some white protective thin foam like bag. - The manual and product info is the size of a post card and only marginally thicker. There are a couple of weedy, ultra thin feeling figure of 8 power leads with UK connections and a further 2 for Europe. - Yes, it all does the job but something a little nicer would make the unpacking experience ... nicer.
6. Non removable grilles. Fair enough, they look superb and no doubt the speaker was designed with them in place but apparently the same Continuum drivers were used as in the 800 series (with cast baskets and big magnet systems) so I occasionally would like to see what I've paid for, even only from the front. I also think black anodised grilles would have looked smarter with the black version, likewise white for the ... .
Not a good start perhaps but there is better to come. I will pass my findings on to B&W.
I also find it odd none of the above or at least some are mentioned in 'professional' reviews. Draw your own conclusions as to why ...
I start with some minuses and go to the good stuff later in a separate message, there are quite a few.
Please also note, so far I have not used the Formation Audio, the optional Hub to connect more sources. I will cover this separately. The below is simply streaming through the app. I do not use Roon.
1. Volume control steps are too big (unless I've missed a trick but there is not much to play with in the simple app). At lower volume there is not enough scope for adjustment. They should double the available steps, at least!
2. There is no off 'switch'. B&W simply say there is no need to ever turn them off. - They do go automatically in to standby after no signal is received after a while but as odd as this may seem, I like an 'off button', even if it's only in the app. Little things matter and add to user enjoyment.
3. The whole of the Class D amplifier section, the base of the speaker, gets rather warm approaching hot. Far more so than the Kef's with their dedicated heat sinks. This may or may not bode well for the longevity of electronic components within. Heat is usually the enemy so we'll see. I am surprised though considering the topology. I will buy a suitable thermometer this week to get accurate readings but for now I will leave it at I never had a hifi component that was running hotter. One possible explanation is that the base section of the speaker also includes the 5 or so antennaes and router to form the Duo's own Mesh network.
4. The app/s. Currently there are 2 and they are neither as comprehensive or intuitive as KEF's. They work and that is all I can praise them for. -
There is no Room Correction or any other niceties for that matter such as an option to determine cut off-frequencies for subwoofer integration. Perhaps this option only appears when connecting a sub? - I hope so as this really is a must in a product like this! Literally the only things you can adjust are Volume, bass & treble. Volume in-App adjustment, apart from not being fine enough can seem clumsy on occasions. With the KEF's you get a remote, here you don't. Everything is app controlled and B&W has work to do. - For nearly 4 grand I expect more ... including Room Correction.
There was an update a few months ago which added ... Alexa. That was it. - Although B&W say they are continuing to improve the app, it all seems that they stopped doing where it matters a year ago. Not good enough, especially for a product that relies entirely on its app.
5. Packaging. I am all for environmental friendliness but B&W have gone a little too far. - I know £4k is small change in the high end but if CA Audio can do better with £400 products I want something a little nicer when spending 10 times this. Its a carton box with a couple of Styrofoam panels and the speakers wrapped in some white protective thin foam like bag. - The manual and product info is the size of a post card and only marginally thicker. There are a couple of weedy, ultra thin feeling figure of 8 power leads with UK connections and a further 2 for Europe. - Yes, it all does the job but something a little nicer would make the unpacking experience ... nicer.
6. Non removable grilles. Fair enough, they look superb and no doubt the speaker was designed with them in place but apparently the same Continuum drivers were used as in the 800 series (with cast baskets and big magnet systems) so I occasionally would like to see what I've paid for, even only from the front. I also think black anodised grilles would have looked smarter with the black version, likewise white for the ... .
Not a good start perhaps but there is better to come. I will pass my findings on to B&W.
I also find it odd none of the above or at least some are mentioned in 'professional' reviews. Draw your own conclusions as to why ...
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dspatterson
pfm Member
That's allot of money to spend if your not happy with your purchase.
You are fortunate to be in a position to do so.
You are fortunate to be in a position to do so.
Bloody amazing
I was trying to explain how they sound on another forum. I ended up writing nearly half a page when I realised that no matter what, it really is difficult to purvey subjective impressions without either coming over as a fan boy (I'm not, see previous message about the minuses for the product) or falling into flowery and typical hifi language. - So I deleted it all.
Had I to describe the Duo's sound in one phrase it would be something like this;
A speaker several times it's size with a powerful, accurate, smooth valve amplifier.
(With the caveat that you have effective tone controls to adjust the sound signature).
OK, two phrases ...
It's unlikely to happen but I would be quite interested in hearing these next to a good amplifier speaker system, something like a Prima Luna EVO 400 and a set of B&W 800 series stand mount or smaller Harbeth's.
Had I to describe the Duo's sound in one phrase it would be something like this;
A speaker several times it's size with a powerful, accurate, smooth valve amplifier.
(With the caveat that you have effective tone controls to adjust the sound signature).
OK, two phrases ...
It's unlikely to happen but I would be quite interested in hearing these next to a good amplifier speaker system, something like a Prima Luna EVO 400 and a set of B&W 800 series stand mount or smaller Harbeth's.