Audiophile music

[Tony L]

further off topic but where do you stand on Charlotte Adigery?

Like. I bought Topical Dancer on vinyl after seeing them on the Glastonbury coverage last year. It is a good record and nicely cut over four sides unlike far much too-long modern pop/electronica etc

 

[paulfromcamden]

@les24preludes OT but a question for you as a double bass player (assuming you play through an amp).

What do you consider to be the sound of your instrument when it's amplified for performance? Is the amplifier effectively part of the instrument in the way it would be with an electric guitar or is it simply a necessary evil to make yourself heard?

I've seen bass players spend some time adjusting the controls of amps/pre-amps and I'm never really sure whether they're trying to replicate the unamplified sound or simply trying to create an amplified sound that they like. And the resulting sound is obviously hugely influenced by choice of pickup and placement.

I'm also aware that some players have strong preferences regarding whether the amp is miked, a DI is used or even a mic placed in front of the bass to capture it's acoustic sound for the PA. Some of the clearest sound I've heard has been from a small DPA mic placed near the bridge.

Perhaps it depends on the player and situation?

 

[adamdea]

Like. I bought Topical Dancer on vinyl after seeing them on the Glastonbury coverage last year. It is a good record and nicely cut over four sides unlike far much too-long modern pop/electronica etc

I'm generally liking their lyrics although "Ceci n'est pas un cliché" is bordering on smartarse.

 

[les24preludes]

@les24preludes OT but a question for you as a double bass player (assuming you play through an amp).

What do you consider to be the sound of your instrument when it's amplified for performance? Is the amplifier effectively part of the instrument in the way it would be with an electric guitar or is it simply a necessary evil to make yourself heard?

Watch from 16.00 as I get a bollocking from Ray Brown in a TV masterclass for not having a stronger natural tone to my bass and relying too much on the amplifier. I was using light strings set close to the fingerboard for easy playing at the top of the range of the bass in thumb position. I had discussed this with bassist Clint Houston (ex Woody Shaw) who had a very light action and said he liked his strings "painted on" so he could play fast. Ray Brown was old school and had a medium action with more tone from the instrument. He was right about the tone for sure. It's a very debatable subject, how close you set your strings. A lot depends on how fast and how high you want to play on the instrument. Same kind of thing for any stringed instrument.

 

[paulfromcamden]

Watch from 16.00 as I get a bollocking from Ray Brown in a TV masterclass for not having a stronger natural tone to my bass and relying too much on the amplifier. I was using light strings set close to the fingerboard for easy playing at the top of the range of the bass in thumb position. I had discussed this with bassist Clint Houston (ex Woody Shaw) who had a very light action and said he liked his strings "painted on" so he could play fast. Ray Brown was old school and had a medium action with more tone from the instrument. He was right about the tone for sure. It's a very debatable subject, how close you set your strings. A lot depends on how fast and how high you want to play on the instrument. Same kind of thing for any stringed instrument.

That's fantastic and a great answer to my question - thanks!

 

[Rana]

The 1980's engineering student in me is evident here!

 

[hockman]

Even for live recordings I think the aim of most musicians and engineers is to create something 'better than the real thing'.

I see a reasonable amount of free jazz / free improvisation live. The experience of being in the room while it's performed is very different to listening to a recording at home. A well mixed recording of close miked instruments can present tiny details in the playing and the sound of the instruments that simply aren't audible during performance.

Not to mention also that in a live setting, the sense of immediacy and visceral presence that somehow fails to be captured or reproduced on most recordings. For me, this is the greatest difference between live and recorded music.

 

[paulfromcamden]

Not to mention also that in a live setting, the sense of immediacy and visceral presence that somehow fails to be captured or reproduced on most recordings. For me, this is the greatest difference between live and recorded music.

Very true. Though I wonder also how much that is down to them being fundamentally different experiences. When we listen to a recording there's a part of our brain that knows we can play it back any time. Listening to the performance live we know it's only ever happening in that moment.

Perhaps it's similar to the way your favourite song always sounds amazing when you hear it on the radio.

 

[hockman]

I've been to some storied clubs and halls but the best live sound I've heard was in a very small community hall somewhere in some obscure corner of Belleville, Paris. It was a jazz quartet featuring Steve Potts, another saxophone, bass and John Betsch on drums (both Potts and Betsch used to play with Steve Lacy and were resident in Paris).

It had tremendous live presence, with no amplification whatsoever and only maybe a dozen of us, sitting on hard concrete floors. I can only wish to get that kind of sound from my stereo. Sometimes I think spending a lot on hifi is a real waste of money because the gap is so huge.

 

[paulfromcamden]

Sounds awesome!

I wonder if you could recreate that sound whether it would actually be what a lot of people want to hear in their living room - or whether they'd find it too in your face.

 

[SteveG]

Sounds awesome!

I wonder if you could recreate that sound whether it would actually be what a lot of people want to hear in their living room - or whether they'd find it too in your face.

I imagine the neighbours wouldn't be too happy if you did manage to recreate it!

 

[Orbe Chaser]

I think there is a fair amount of inverse snobbery with people who claim they only listen to the music & don't care about the method of replay. If that were true why are there so many fora dedicated to people who scrimp & save to afford better & better equipment in order to enjoy the music more. We all do it in one way or another. The ones who claim their aim is to get playback to sound as near as possible to the sound achieved in the studio, are quite frankly pissing in the wind, I mean how does anyone know the answer to that? Never mind the fact that they would be disappointed if that goal were achieved in a domestic living space.
It is the most natural thing for us geeks to want the best recordings for our systems, I buy "audiophile" records because they sound much better to my ears, so I don't see the problem.

 

[les24preludes]

The ones who claim their aim is to get playback to sound as near as possible to the sound achieved in the studio, are quite frankly pissing in the wind, I mean how does anyone know the answer to that?

It's true that a domestic listening room is unlikely to sound like a studio control room, even less a live event.

But that's not really the point. Our hearing is very selective - it has to be for us to survive. So what we need is "signals" that remind us strongly of the sound of real instruments. For some it's soundstage, others full frequency response and bass slam, and for me it's the tone and timbre of acoustic instruments. We prioritise what we want or need to hear and pay less attention to what's less relevant.

So what we are trying to get spookily correct is the "essence" of what we hear, not the whole shooting match. The same thing happens with cartoons - our reaction can be "that's JUST like him/her" even though it's basically an illusion.

 

[paulfromcamden]

It's true that a domestic listening room is unlikely to sound like a studio control room, even less a live event.

But that's not really the point. Our hearing is very selective - it has to be for us to survive. So what we need is "signals" that remind us strongly of the sound of real instruments. For some it's soundstage, others full frequency response and bass slam, and for me it's the tone and timbre of acoustic instruments. We prioritise what we want or need to hear and pay less attention to what's less relevant.

So what we are trying to get spookily correct is the "essence" of what we hear, not the whole shooting match. The same thing happens with cartoons - our reaction can be "that's JUST like him/her" even though it's basically an illusion.

Perhaps weirdly one of the things I really enjoy about older recordings (~1950 to early sixties) is that they sound like a recording. The frequency response is rolled off at both extremes, they're generally mono, but the music sounds great presented in that way.

In a sense I think I'm not trying to recreate a live performance - I enjoy listening to recordings. Which to me are something altogether different.

I suspect it's also why I enjoy records more than other formats - I can see the physical embodiment of the recording in front of me and hear the sound it's making.

The discussion here around some of the Tone Poet remasters has been really interesting. Many of them present the music in a more 'accurate' or 'natural' form than the original compressed Van Gelder cuts but some people (including Tony L) have expressed a preference for the original masters because they present the music in a more immediate way.

 

[Woodface]

I think there is a fair amount of inverse snobbery with people who claim they only listen to the music & don't care about the method of replay. If that were true why are there so many fora dedicated to people who scrimp & save to afford better & better equipment in order to enjoy the music more. We all do it in one way or another. The ones who claim their aim is to get playback to sound as near as possible to the sound achieved in the studio, are quite frankly pissing in the wind, I mean how does anyone know the answer to that? Never mind the fact that they would be disappointed if that goal were achieved in a domestic living space.
It is the most natural thing for us geeks to want the best recordings for our systems, I buy "audiophile" records because they sound much better to my ears, so I don't see the problem.

Is there a type of music/hifi that you do approve of? Is there a golden ratio

I’d like to think that most people are music fans first?

I actually don’t own that many audiophile records & the ones I do have were certainly less than £30. The velum side of things just doesn’t interest me.

I think as I’ve become older I have more perspective about what is worth it & what isn’t.

A decent streamer/dac into active speakers playing lossless or hi-res is so much better than I could ever expected hifi to be 30 odd years ago.

 

[Orbe Chaser]

Is there a type of music/hifi that you do approve of? Is there a golden ratio

I’d like to think that most people are music fans first?

I actually don’t own that many audiophile records & the ones I do have were certainly less than £30. The velum side of things just doesn’t interest me.

I think as I’ve become older I have more perspective about what is worth it & what isn’t.

A decent streamer/dac into active speakers playing lossless or hi-res is so much better than I could ever expected hifi to be 30 odd years ago.

I like a wide range of music, & some hifi systems are better than others, of course. I am saying I am a music fan first, there would be no point if I weren't would there?
Some of my favourite records sound rubbish on anything, but I don't care. I used to collect valve radios, mainly from the American Jetson period, & I loved listening to them. Just because I have a home system doesn't devalue my lofi listening, it is horses for courses.

I don't give a stuff about the golden ratio, I like what I like, we are all different, but just because you have never paid £30 for a record doesn't mean everyone should fall in line with you does it? For my personal taste your example of a streamer/dac into active speakers wouldn't interest me as I prefer a different path,

I don't defend audiophiles or audiophile music, there is no need, same as there is no reason to look down your nose at people who do.

 

[hockman]

Sounds awesome!

I wonder if you could recreate that sound whether it would actually be what a lot of people want to hear in their living room - or whether they'd find it too in your face.

I do, actually. It's what I look for and pursue in hifi. Not necessarily the dB levels typically encountered live (that would be too much) but that kind of 'sound'...

 

[Woodface]

I like a wide range of music, & some hifi systems are better than others, of course. I am saying I am a music fan first, there would be no point if I weren't would there?
Some of my favourite records sound rubbish on anything, but I don't care. I used to collect valve radios, mainly from the American Jetson period, & I loved listening to them. Just because I have a home system doesn't devalue my lofi listening, it is horses for courses.

I don't give a stuff about the golden ratio, I like what I like, we are all different, but just because you have never paid £30 for a record doesn't mean everyone should fall in line with you does it? For my personal taste your example of a streamer/dac into active speakers wouldn't interest me as I prefer a different path,

I don't defend audiophiles or audiophile music, there is no need, same as there is no reason to look down your nose at people who do.

I think you have misplaced your sense of humour. I’m not looking down my nose at anyone.

 

[Orbe Chaser]

I think you have misplaced your sense of humour. I’m not looking down my nose at anyone.

Not really, however it was ambiguous & in no way directed at yourself so for that I apologise, I meant people in general, not you.

 

[tuga]

I read somewhere that the piano is the most demanding instrument to reproduce , so it should be included in any test of hifi.

The best or most realistic piano (and small ensemble) recordings I've listened to are by PlayClassics. The engineer, Mario Martinez, will provide a pink noise file to calibrate the playback level if you ask.

TRT Sound - Play Classics

Listen to the world's most transparent recordings. Feel the sound as if you were present on the hall. Enjoy classical music at its best.

www.playclassics.com