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ATC SCM11s Are Driving Me Crazy (Naim Amps)

H

heathster

pfm Member
Just bought a pair of ATC SCM11s after liking what they do in a mates system, and once borrowing a pair of SCM7s (great but no real bottom end due to their size)

But they're doing my head in. Just listened to The The - Infected earlier, an album which has always sounded open & dynamic, to be presented with a rather dull, closed in sound. However, just listened to Out Of Time and currently listening to Automatic For The People, and these albums sound as good as I've ever heard them. This is all at the same relatively low volume.

I know a lot has been said on forums about how they need high sound level to come on song, and they certainly respond well to being played loud. However REM are currently being played at a very low volume and sound great.

Anyone else having this issue that they are so recording dependant that half of their music collection becomes unenjoyable and end up listening to 'A Walk Across The Rooftops' more than they should? They can even sound dull and sparkling on the same track! Did my Credos (still sat on my landing, phew!) really apply a 'make everything sound rather good' filter by being coloured/mid forward and fool me?

My system comprises

NAC102/NAPSC/HC
NAP180 (changed from a 140 this weekend to improve matters. It has, the good stuff sounds better, but the bad stuff just sounds a little less bad)

And now I'll ready myself for howls of derision, because the music source is a....

SB Touch & Cambridge DM

But this combo has provided me with hours of enjoyable music and has outperformed more expensive CD players. The ATCs are on sand filled Atacama SE20 stands.

Anyone else experiencing these frustrating results, and did you find a cure?
 
Heathster, it ain't easy to get any system sounding just right. Maybe you could try positioning them differently.



Louballoo
 
"They can even sound dull and sparkling on the same track!"

When was the last time you checked all cables and their connectors for consistent continuity (wiggle test) and cleaned them by insertion/removal say four or five times? Could be an intermittent connection which is affected by vibration or the cables themselves being moved with the new speakers being installed into the system.
 
Well the upgrade/change kit route is an option, but this would probably take me away from Naim gear, to Densen, ATC etc and I have to decide which do I like the most, the Naim sound or the ATC sound. I'll play around with positioning, but the speakers are fairly forgiving with regards to placement with them being sealed boxes. The thing is they can sound fantastic with one recording, and make me reach for the Credos on the next. The Credos by comparison almost seemed to have an automatic equaliser built in, as they have such a consistent sound. I got the ATCs, as the Credos low end wasn't great in the room due to poor new house construction!
 
Dave, the dull & sparkling thing is that cymbals, pianos etc can all sound great, but the vocal or drums can sound dull. The connections are all tight and had plenty of insertion/removal as kit got swapped. And as luck would have it, the ATCs binding post pitch is the same as the Naim speaker plug.
 
heathster said:
Dave, the dull & sparkling thing is that cymbals, pianos etc can all sound great, but the vocal or drums can sound dull. The connections are all tight and had plenty of insertion/removal as kit got swapped. And as luck would have it, the ATCs binding post pitch is the same as the Naim speaker plug.
Click to expand...

Are you using NACA 5 and the Naim plastic spacers on the speaker and amp end of the cable? If so, turn the 180 off and remove the plastic spacers on both ends of the cable. The spacers combined with stiff cable like NACA do cause misalignment with resulting sound degradation in some installations. (I've had to remove them from mine for example due to a sharp bend in the cable near the floor entering my SBL xover as it caused a dodgy connection with 4mm pin/socket misalignment.)

Otherwise, it's possible the ATCs may just be more revealing of the difference in recordings than the Credos however that's pure speculation on my part as I haven't heard them. It could also be a coloration in the ATCs which is more prominent on some program material. Regardless, you'll know which speaker you prefer over the next few days. Just listen to your favorite music without worrying about it and your subconscious will decide for you;-)

The last thing I would do is change a whole system out when the problem is only with one component (the speakers.)
 
Cheers Dave. Yes, I am using NACA5 with Naim plugs, I'll give that a go. Totally agree with you about the subconcious chosing, it will choose the speakers that connect with the music best in my system, whereas my concious brain is busy listening to hifi! I do love things that the ATCs do best though. When they're good, they're very good!
 
Do let us know what happens after you've had time to experiment with the setup. I'd literally start with the AC plugs in the wall and check everything back to the speakers.

Maybe someone with experience with these ATCs can advise if sand-filled stands may be causing the problem as well. I've never found a pair of speakers yet that improved with filling the stands using sand or lead shot. Matter of fact, quite the opposite with a dead sound somewhat like you're describing.
 
heathster said:
Just bought a pair of ATC SCM11s after liking what they do in a mates system, and once borrowing a pair of SCM7s (great but no real bottom end due to their size)

But they're doing my head in. Just listened to The The - Infected earlier, an album which has always sounded open & dynamic, to be presented with a rather dull, closed in sound. However, just listened to Out Of Time and currently listening to Automatic For The People, and these albums sound as good as I've ever heard them. This is all at the same relatively low volume.

I know a lot has been said on forums about how they need high sound level to come on song, and they certainly respond well to being played loud. However REM are currently being played at a very low volume and sound great.

Anyone else having this issue that they are so recording dependant that half of their music collection becomes unenjoyable and end up listening to 'A Walk Across The Rooftops' more than they should? They can even sound dull and sparkling on the same track! Did my Credos (still sat on my landing, phew!) really apply a 'make everything sound rather good' filter by being coloured/mid forward and fool me?

My system comprises

NAC102/NAPSC/HC
NAP180 (changed from a 140 this weekend to improve matters. It has, the good stuff sounds better, but the bad stuff just sounds a little less bad)

And now I'll ready myself for howls of derision, because the music source is a....

SB Touch & Cambridge DM

But this combo has provided me with hours of enjoyable music and has outperformed more expensive CD players. The ATCs are on sand filled Atacama SE20 stands.

Anyone else experiencing these frustrating results, and did you find a cure?
Click to expand...

Hi heathster

Studio Control Monitor :)

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft
 
Bowing out now heathster as Rick's yer man being an ATC/Naim dealer. Do let us know how it turns out though!
 
sorry to hijack your thread. Is there anyone who has experienced a nait5/atc standmount configuration and could advice, please?
 
Although the ATC's do work fine with name amps,they crave watts,even the bigger Naim amps can at times struggle ,however they would sound far superior driven by a 250 if funds allow-try to get a dem and see what i mean!!
 
I have heard the 11's with a variety of stuff (And have had SCM7's at home, and now SCM10's) it sounds like you need a better power amp, I never got on with the SCM7, 11 or 19's with NAIM. They sounded much better (Open, dynamics and bass depth) with Audiolab. I preferred the 8200A to the Nait 5i.
How big is your room?
I found that adding some big heavy stands (Target R1) really tightened up the soundstage and bass.
It does seem a feature of ATC's that some recording sound good, and others bad, and dont sound their best at low volumes.
 
Just listened to The The - Infected earlier, an album which has always sounded open & dynamic, to be presented with a rather dull, closed in sound.
Click to expand...
I don't really know this album, but I just played it, and it sounds thin and bright. Definitely not dynamic though. (And I think you probably had to be there...)

This is on bigger, active ATCs, and not 'loud'.

Paul
 
Have you tried listening directly on the tweeter axis - ie with the speakers angled in towards you, and possible raised? Bringing them out away from the wall will mean less bass emphasis too.
 
Yes seems to be a common theme, even with the bigger actives ATCs, some recordings sound amazing, then some ordinary, sounds like you've got some good transparent speaker there! :)
I must admit i found this a bit with the passive Dynaudios i had, they had to be played at a more 'realistic' volume to come alive and seem right (this wasn't the case with the active versions, as obviously they are made for listening at lower levels with them being mixing monitors).

1209ATCfig4.jpg


http://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements.

The above tells you a lot about them, did think about the 11s myself for a second budget(ish) system, but thinking id have to buy a more powerful amp has put me off them, seems like a very good small speaker though.

EDIT: Im just having a listen to the Blue Nile album via spotify (im not familiar with it although im enjoying it! :)) The vocals do seem very smooth maybe a bit laid back (on some tracks), but it seems like some effort has been put into the recording of it as it sounds very balanced to me.
 
Thanks for all the replies. From some of the comments it appears that Naim & ATC aren't the best of bedfellows, although I checked the internet before buying others are loving them with NAC112/NAP150 etc. The speakers are seven months old, but I don't know how many hours they have on them.

AndyU, thought about toeing in slightly, try that tonight. Space is the Place, I'll take a look at the links, could explain a lot, thanks.

Thing is I don't believe it's totally the fault of the amps, as it really can sound stunning with certain recordings, but I can't limit my music to well mixed & mastered CDs.

Rick @ Musicraft. With your experience, which do you think is most to blame, bad recordings or the amps?

Paul R, the remaster of Infected improves on the original, which wasn't mastered at today's nosebleed levels, but remained undynamic.
 
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