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At last... (Audiolab) - part II

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JohnW said:
Himesh,

The Guys at Audiolab UK have invited me to the Bristol Show, Ill bring along the MDAC…

…
Click to expand...

Hi John,

Great news! I'm in Belgium over the weekend but will make an effort to get there on the Sunday! As for the MDAC, I believe you agree with me in saying that for the price it seems to be a great product as a transport upgrade for the 8000CDE, but would you recommend a DQ over it? Can the DQ be used alongside my CDE as a transport too?

They both seem to me pretty identical in purpose - DAC + Pre amp (both even have an headphone jack) just the MDAC is smaller and has fewer input/output options... is this correct or have I missed a trick?! I'm so bad with this i can never be so sure!

How do the DAC's in both compare? Is one better than the other in terms of SQ? Also, if you can, a rough estimation of RRP for the DQ would help me in this query!

Thanks John,
Himesh
 
hi
intresting review and thank you for that.
in some ways your proberly one of the best people to judge the sound qualities as your not jaded by the years of so called hifi training goldern ears like a bat seasoned hifi listerner,(before i get hammered with hate quotes or whatever im just stating that afew get bogged down with the techicalities of the sound and results,any musical ability is just a by-product...hell ive certainly been guilty of that).
as you point out it sounded good to you and held its own,and that my friend is all that matters,the main thing is not to equate expensive audio gear as hi-end per-se,sure theres some excellent stuff out there almost worth there money but theres also plenty that are shams,this has been learnt by bitter experience....so trust those ears and how your system sounds to you.
totally agree with you regarding room and speakers along with postioning as proberly one of the biggest changes in sound you could make.
surely one of the biggest buzzes in this game is getting a killer sound from your system at a resonable price,you expect a hi-end?? expensive system to sound amazing(or at least i would hope so) so if you can get close at a fraction of the cost...then who really has the better system?
ive had afew of johns earlier products rangeing from the decapo to the iso-dac and have always been impressed with them,and before anyone screams im just a john westlake worshipper so its always going to be that way with me then thats really not the case as ive gone down many paths with plenty of other equipment and makes( mainly because john and crew is to slow getting some products out to try...sort that out will you john!)
its just that with johns products you will know unless something major has happened that your going to get a great sounding product at a fair price,of course i can only bass that on the past products ive had and listern to as ive not heard the audiolab offeres but i will certainly be taking the risk when the mdac becomes avaliable!
ok ramble over with and once again thanks for the review,great thread.
all the best
smithie
 
gr0001,

Sorry to hear about your RC command “clash” – as Dan has already posted – its sounds like your plinius 9200 amp is also based upon the RC5 standard – so both units are responding to the same command codes. If you’re now using the CDQ for pre-amplifier duties, you could just cover the Plinius RC window – not ideal, but a working solution – which country are you based?

Nikos, Wayne C, Hasna,

We are having a hard time to understand the headphone Muting issue, as obviously its not normal operation - but also we cannot understand how it can exist as a fault condition in the first instance.

The outputs are switched (Muted) by relays, which into the 10K load of your power amps result in -96dB attenuation - well below the noise floor in most systems. It could be a relay failure in your unit - but extremely unlikely to effect both channels as this would require two relay failures!

Nikos, could you pls. confirm that you are hear low level sound from both speakers while the headphone jack is inserted – could you also Pls. confirm which Power-amps you are using.

If we cannot replicate the issue, and we cannot get to the bottom of this, I’m thinking about jumping on a plane and visiting you to get a better understanding of what’s going on – we are sorry for your issue, and Dominik and I will personally endeavour to find a solution.

Hamish,

The DQ has 3 Analogue inputs, (the MDAC has no Analogue Pre-amplifier) and has a higher quality internal PSU.

Marketing are planning to sell the DQ slotted somewhere between around the 8200CD pricing, so around GBP700.

There are plans to sell a higher quality external PSU for the MDAC / QDAC which the user can upgrade too at anytime, so with the added HQ external PSU, the sound quality between DQ and MDAC should be fairly close – they use the same DAC and Analogue sections etc.

Hopefully have a chance to meet you at the Bristol show,

Smithie,

I glad you appreciate my (our) designs, the design ethos has always been to sell Hi-End performance for “Budget” pricing - CD4SE, CD6, IsoMagic, DacMagic, Dacapo are typical examples.

Following past traditions, you will like the MDAC... (QDAC’s even better!)
 
JohnW said:
gr0001,

Nikos, Wayne C, Hasna,

We are having a hard time to understand the headphone Muting issue, as obviously its not normal operation - but also we cannot understand how it can exist as a fault condition in the first instance.

The outputs are switched (Muted) by relays, which into the 10K load of your power amps result in -96dB attenuation - well below the noise floor in most systems. It could be a relay failure in your unit - but extremely unlikely to effect both channels as this would require two relay failures!

Nikos, could you pls. confirm that you are hear low level sound from both speakers while the headphone jack is inserted – could you also Pls. confirm which Power-amps you are using.

If we cannot replicate the issue, and we cannot get to the bottom of this, I’m thinking about jumping on a plane and visiting you to get a better understanding of what’s going on – we are sorry for your issue, and Dominik and I will personally endeavour to find a solution.


Following past traditions, you will like the MDAC... (QDAC’s even better!)
Click to expand...

Hi John,

i have been down with virus the last couple of days and now that i am a bit better i investigated the headphone issue further.
I can confirm that the sound comes from both channels. The "level" of the sound reproduced when the headphones are inserted is like when you listen with the speakers at the -72dbs of the CDQ display.
Since my speakers are active, i eliminated the active crossover from the signal path and i connected the CDQ directly into one of the power amps. I noticed that the sound when the headphones are inserted is still present but now even lower and this will not cause any issue with late night listening.

So, the problem is in my active crossover.

Sorry if that caused some confusion with "the headphone problem" that i reported and many thanks for looking into the problem from your end.
You are most wellcome to come to Greece one day even if this is not to solve my "headphone problem" :)

Nikos
 
Has anyone in the UK bought one yet?, I have been on Audio T's waiting list since mid december, ain't as yet heard from them about delivery to their stores , or expected dates, website still showing out of stock

ta Wayne
 
Nikos,

I hope your feeling better, thank you for taking the time to further investigate the issue - saves me a flight....

-72dB is a VERY low level in a “normal” system.

The important information that we where unaware of was the active crossover in the signal path. Untill now, we could not understand how you had a problem with an amplifier with 20K input impedance - from your description it appears that the active crossover must have a very much higher input impendence. I'm also guessing that the active crossover has gain (seems like about 10dB), worsening the situation - we normally listen with the volume control set somewhere between -20dB to -10dB (typically -16dB).

There’s nothing inherently wrong with the active crossover - it’s just the combination with it's High input Impedance and Extra Gain that exuberated the situation when used in combination with the CDQ.

The solution is to add say a 10K resistor ACROSS the + & - inputs of the Balanced XLR leads between the CDQ & Active Xover (You will need to add a resistor to both XLR leads) - this will solve your problem.

I'm in Czech Rep. until February, so if you send me your leads I can add the resistors for you.

For future CDQ production we have increased the termination resistance to 10K internally to the CDQ - to prevent the very rare occurrence of such issue.
 
hi john
can you just recap on the differences regarding the mdac and qdac and while you feel it will be better over the mdac?
theres just to many m/q/cdq/dqs to get my head around and remember:D
did try going the thread again but theres just to many pages to do that quickly!
anyway whatever way i go its good to see the team and you have got some products out there and im eager to try one when i sort out whats the best for my needs;)
all the best
smithie
 
JohnW said:
Nikos,



The solution is to add say a 10K resistor ACROSS the + & - inputs of the Balanced XLR leads between the CDQ & Active Xover (You will need to add a resistor to both XLR leads) - this will solve your problem.

I'm in Czech Rep. until February, so if you send me your leads I can add the resistors for you.

For future CDQ production we have increased the termination resistance to 10K internally to the CDQ - to prevent the very rare occurrence of such issue.
Click to expand...

Hi John,

and many thanks for your offer to fix the problem by "inserting" the resistors to the cables.
I will do that inside the active crossover as the interconnects that i use (contrary to your beliefs of expensive cables) are the Audioquest Niagara and Sky. I know that the price of just one of the cables is twice paid for the CDQ but i also believe that the best deserve the best;)

Keep up the excellent work.

Nikos
 
John Can you clarify which is the best DAC out of all those in current or imminent production, I have as you know on order the CDQ and hope that is up there, I won't really be using the cd section of the CDQ ( well not that much anyway !) , but if you could give a list of what you consider to be the best to nearly the best!, trying to be diplomatic if I can there!!

Wayne

I am presuming the the 8200CD and 8200CDQ are exactly the same Internal dac wise , but I may be wrong!!!!
 
The DAC section of the CD and CDQ should be the same.

But the output stage, the CDQ should has upgraded componets that improved the audio from the CD.

But I am not John. So better wait for his reply. :D

Ya, would like to know too if the DACs only design betters the CDQ in terms of audio output too.
 
Hi Wayne,

Don’t worry, the CDQ / DQ are the best of the bunch - I cannot comment on MDAC as I've not had a chance to seriously listen to it yet, although it's based upon the same DAC and Analogue section etc. as the CD/CDQ/DQ - and I'm just designing the PCB layout for the QDAC which has a couple of updates - but I've still not issued the files, let alone listen to it yet...

Smithie / Sovereign,

It’s a simple question, but harder to answer as I have not critically listen to the MDAC or the QDAC. I base our SQ expectations upon our experiences with the CD / CDQ as the designs share so much commonality.

Also, this weekend I’m updating the QDAC PCB design to include a unique output stage topology which I “invented” back in the early 90’s - but have still not used on a production design. The intention was to keep this “juicy” little section for our own Lakewest DAC – but while striving for the best for Audiolab, I could not contain myself… Audiolab have agreed to licence the design from us - and as they say “A bird in the hand is better then two birds in the bush”…

As the MDAC / QDAC have been designed to be primarily used with external SPDIF sources (apart from the Async. USB and a “Secret” feature on the QDAC) an extra PLL circuit has been added to improve their Audio performance with High Jitter external digital sources.

The 8200CD & 8200CDQ share the same Design and DAC (even same PCB), but the CDQ has improved component quality within its PSU section's.
 
Hi John,

Not sure if this is mentioned before but regarding the 12V trigger issue on the first batch of CDQ.

Is it possible to convert the IR out for example to become the 12V trigger just via a simple firmware upgrade etc?

Just trying my luck with this. I assume that it is electrically impossible to do so. But....

CS
 
hi john
many thanks for taking the time to responed to my question,dont see where you find the time to produce products and answer forums,but good on you all the same:D
youve pipped my intrest in the qdac now,all sounds very intresting,hopefully i get the chance to audition as many of the different models as and when they come out and then decide from there for what suits me!
all the best
smithie.
 
Thanks John , I guess I'll keep the CDQ until the Q DAC comes out with this Lakewest stuff inside it and compare the two, was it a hard decision to license it to Audiolab?, and secondly would this improve the CDQ if ever it were licensed for that as well. and third would it bump up the cdqs price?/ lead to major modifications if ever it was installed in one for sale to the public!!.

Once again thanks for answering , I also don't know how you find the time!!.

Wayne
 
I had a good listen to the 8200CD at the beginning of December there, in the UK!
I was really impressed with it, i must say, enough so I'm waiting patiently on the 8200DQ to appear, without the cd transport, hopefully it'll be a good price! The question is when will it arrive hahaha, i really am keen to get my hands on it.
 
CS,

As you suspected, it's not possible via a firmware update to convert the IR loop to a 12V Trigger, in fact they are interfaced directly to the IR circuit / uP BUS.

MI55ION

Holding down (Long Press) on the Remote Control the "Display" Button will bring up an option to select the LCD Backlight Brightness. This feature was added after the first 100pcs or so of 8200CD, so the very first 8200CD's do not have this function.

smithie,

It’s easier to post while here in Europe, back in China PFM is very VERY slow, or totally blocked by the Great Firewall of China.

Wayne C

Yes its sad that we haven't had an opportunity yet to use our “clever” IP for Lakewest (Dominik would go so far to say disappointing), but its not that hard to licence to Audiolab, quite the contrary - I’m excited to hear the difference, it's been more then 10 years since I developed the circuit and I’m keen to hear the magnitude of improvement – The MDAC / QDAC make an ideal platform as they would be otherwise identical (as far as the analogue sections are concerned). Obviously we would only licence the circuit on the QDAC if it justifies the extra cost.

No plans to update the existing designs until its proved its worth sonically, also the margins (BOM Costs) are very tight on the 8200CD /CDQ/ DQ so it is not being currently considered.

Gipsykirk,

I’m very glad you liked the 8200CD; the CDQ / DQ are sonically updated.

8200DQ is waiting for production line space – CDQ’s only just gone into production – making the DQ’s atleast 4 months from the dealer’s shelves…
 
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