Anyone With A Small Businesses Grant.

[I.D.C.]

I lease out a fully equipped Coffee shop Bistro Licensed. The tennant a couple of weeks into lockdown contacted me to say she could only afford £200 a month she would not budge on that saying lock down could go on for a year. All my income stopped during lock down no furlough or Universal credit ether. So I phoned the local council on the advice from the job centre as they classed me as self employed. The local council informed me a grant of £10,000 was paid out for the business. This woman also has another coffee shop which recieved £7,500. On Monday the 13th of July she informed me she would no longer run the business. This date 13th July was before the lock down stopped in Scotland offical lock down ended 15th of July. From lockdown to the 13th July I received a total of £800 rent. The only other outlay she had for the shop was £60 a month for bins to be emptied. I'm not wanting to hold her to the 5 year lease she lost a good custmer base I built up so I do want her out. The thing is the £10,000 grant of which I recieved £800. Anyone know anything about these grants and can anything be done. She has not played fair so I would like to take this further so have written to the council outlining everything. The council have not got back to me. I feel she has stolen tax payers money. She had the business from October 2019.

 

[Cav]

If the Council paid the grant it is for them to decide whether it was paid appropriately and that would be between it and the claimant. Not sure you would or should be involved in any of that.

 

[Tony L]

Sounds a bit dodgy, but she may well have been paying staff wages etc, surely that is the intent of a grant that large?

PS I know nothing about this at all beyond the grant available via the tax site for small businesses, which has nothing to do with the council at all. That doesn’t appear to have any conditions beyond it being taxable income, which is perfectly fair. It was automatically calculated based on 80% of the average of your last three years earnings for a period of three months. I was able to claim it.

 

[I.D.C.]

Sounds a bit dodgy, but she may well have been paying staff wages etc, surely that is the intent of a grant that large?

PS I know nothing about this at all beyond the grant available via the tax site for small businesses, which has nothing to do with the council at all. That doesn’t appear to have any conditions beyond it being taxable income, which is perfectly fair. It was automatically calculated based on 80% of the average of your last three years earnings for a period of three months. I was able to claim it.

It was down to local authority up here to give out the UK's goverment small business grant Tony. I do know for sure no staff was paid anything from the grant. She would not put her chef on furlough even. I'm not one for causing anyone problems but I am annoyed with her actions. It's now going to cost me money to get the place back to as it should be also to find a new tenant in these bad times, if I get someone lawyers fees also. Get the shop covid safety procedure implemented. My understanding was the grant to be used to get the business open again that's the only thing I found online. The bottom line is she took the money and ran.

 

[Amber Audio]

PM’d

 

[Gingerbeard]

I don’t know the ins and outs of this at all, but from chatting to friends who run small businesses, some who have several, they were all looking to take advantage of these grants, whether they needed them or not...

 

[Woodface]

The Govt can pursue her, this will be quite a thing, HMRC have extraordinary powers.

I have heard a number of anecdotal stories of system abuse

 

[Stuart Frazer]

One aspect will be how you agreed to the £200 a month rent.

Another is the yielding up of the lease on the premises. Has she fully complied with the lease covenants including the repairs and dilapidations and has she formally yielded up?

 

[Amber Audio]

You have to keep evidence of the furlough scheme and what you did as an employer for 5 years. The grant was based on the business meeting certain criteria and submitting a form, I would be surprised if they did not investigate grant fraud the same as they have already started investigating furlough claims.

 

[Bob McC]

They don’t have the resources.
It’s all bluster.

 

[Rug Doc]

They aren’t going to supply a grant to a business that within weeks closes its doors and not investigate.

The grants were offered to keep a business afloat.

I’ve heard of builders taking grants and using them to pay off overseas holiday home mortgages.

 

[Amber Audio]

Whether this has any teeth I can’t say, maybe it is bluster but the grant we signed for has wording:

The government will not accept deliberate manipulation and fraud, any business caught falsifying their records to gain additional grant money will face prosecution and any funding issued will be subject to clawback.​

Manipulation could mean a wide variety of things...

 

[I.D.C.]

One aspect will be how you agreed to the £200 a month rent.

Another is the yielding up of the lease on the premises. Has she fully complied with the lease covenants including the repairs and dilapidations and has she formally yielded up?

Cant say I'm a smart businessman I'm not shrewd enough and treat people the way I expected to be treated. So when told no idea how long shut down will go on this is all I can give you I agreed verbally. I never spoke once on the phone made sure it was all done by text so from start of lockdown till the 13th all contact is on my phone by text.

 

[I.D.C.]

They aren’t going to supply a grant to a business that within weeks closes its doors and not investigate.

The grants were offered to keep a business afloat.

I’ve heard of builders taking grants and using them to pay off overseas holiday home mortgages.

I'm not after a grant nor do I think I will get cash. But I'm not prepared to see her run off with the grant.

 

[Rug Doc]

I don’t know the ins and outs of this at all, but from chatting to friends who run small businesses, some who have several, they were all looking to take advantage of these grants, whether they needed them or not...

If the pandemic wasn’t enough to financially **** up the country enough, then taking the grants unnecessarily and using them for bogus or unrelated gain is imo disgraceful.

I own a small business and haven’t used a penny of Cv support money throughout this, it was tough - no income, exactly the same outgoings (landlord didn’t budge, I paid in full, no rate relief, vat bills to pay etc.) the last thing I would do is claim the money and use it for other things. I might look back on this and think that I’m the idiot for not doing so.

The big shock is going to be in January when all the deferred VAT payments are due, as well as the delayed PAYE payments....

So many businesses are going to be in the “I can’t afford my 50k+ vat bill” come January and then close & file for bankruptcy... I’d be interested on HMRCs view re those firms that fold at this time, using deferred vat as reason for bankruptcy, yet took out grants and these can’t then be found in the companies’ expenditure.

 

[Amber Audio]

I'm not after a grant nor do I think I will get cash. But I'm not prepared to see her run off with the grant.

I interpreted the grant as there so I could pay the rent, bills, insurance, heat and light etc. I would think your Council would look at clawback, £17.5k and then closing down last month should flag up.

 

[I.D.C.]

I interpreted the grant as there so I could pay the rent, bills, insurance, heat and light etc. I would think your Council would look at clawback, £17.5k and then closing down last month should flag up.

I have savings for retirement in 4 years not talking mega bucks it's very modest . The fact I'm having to use such savings to survive has crossed my line. I had this woman sign a termination of the lease today. After she signd she told me I'm off to Corsica for three weeks for a holiday. As best I could made sure I was calm collecting as much evidence as I could. Anyway on a positive note myself and wife have our health. This is a fantastic forum Tony has a gem here. I might be wrong or I might be right following this case up my gut tells me dont leave this case to go with the wind.

 

[I.D.C.]

I interpreted the grant as there so I could pay the rent, bills, insurance, heat and light etc. I would think your Council would look at clawback, £17.5k and then closing down last month should flag up.

Should add I pay building insurance and contents insurance. Being a chef and putting the best equipment in the kitchen and in the front shop wanted to make sure everything was coverd. Yes I know daft. I ran the business for 3 years wanted to make sure every thing was protected.

 

[Gingerbeard]

If the pandemic wasn’t enough to financially **** up the country enough, then taking the grants unnecessarily and using them for bogus or unrelated gain is imo disgraceful.

I own a small business and haven’t used a penny of Cv support money throughout this, it was tough - no income, exactly the same outgoings (landlord didn’t budge, I paid in full, no rate relief, vat bills to pay etc.) the last thing I would do is claim the money and use it for other things. I might look back on this and think that I’m the idiot for not doing so.

The big shock is going to be in January when all the deferred VAT payments are due, as well as the delayed PAYE payments....

So many businesses are going to be in the “I can’t afford my 50k+ vat bill” come January and then close & file for bankruptcy... I’d be interested on HMRCs view re those firms that fold at this time, using deferred vat as reason for bankruptcy, yet took out grants and these can’t then be found in the companies’ expenditure.

I admire your stance on this Rug Doc and I don’t condone the decisions others are making. Trouble is, when people (not everyone) see an opportunity to get easy money, they’ll take it.

There is much that frustrates me with the business world In this country, like being able to go bankrupt, clear your debts and then set up again a few days later under a different name. I’ve seen this happen many times in the industry I work in, while others (like my folks) did most things by the book and lost everything in the crash of 2008!

I hope your business is and will be okay

ATB

 

[Tony L]

The thing that surprised me was there is no way to state how much your business has been impacted, e.g. pfm obviously hasn’t been closed down, but it has taken a real hit in revenue and ability to function (I can’t go out to buy new vinyl stock, the ads took a massive hit for a while etc). I claimed what I was entitled to and don’t feel guilty as this business will certainly outlive covid 19, though I was surprised it was a binary claim/not claim pre-calculated thing rather than my having to make a prediction as to how much real impact the virus and lockdown has had on my business.

PS When deciding to claim or not have a look at the shower of Tory MPs with grubby side businesses etc and ask yourself which of them won’t be claiming?! I bet Rees Mogg etc have all filed for it.