Any significant differences between low and high output MC carts?

[bec143]

All- a follow up question to my new turntable thread.

My Planar 3 came with a HANA EH MC cartridge, which is a high output MC (2mV). They provided a Rega Fono Mini A2D, which is really an MM pre. Perhaps not unexpectedly, I need to crank the volume on my amp using this combo. It gets loud enough, but its needs a good turn to the right.

As an alternative, they suggested I swap it for the lower output version, the HANA EL, which is 0.5 mV and switching to a used Rega Fono MC they have. I know that both of these phono stages are entry level, but I won't go crazy with the turntable at this stage. Maybe in the future.

So, other than signal strength coming out of the phono stage, any differences in performance expected between the EH into the MM pre, versus the EL into the MC pre?

Bruce

 

[Robert]

I can't comment directly on the Hana but generally when a cart has a high and low output option, the low should sound better.
More output from a MC cartridge means more turns of wire on the coils, which = higher moving mass, which is a bad thing.

Doesn't make the cartridge bad of course, just a little less capable than the low output version.

One upside from using a high output MC into a MM phono stage is that while you need to use more gain, the inherent noise should be lower than with a MM cartridge. Technical reasons but essentially you have a lower source impedance.
So unless you have audible and bothersome noise I wouldn't worry about how far you need to turn the knob.

 

[bec143]

I can't comment directly on the Hana but generally when a cart has a high and low output option, the low should sound better.
More output from a MC cartridge means more turns of wire on the coils, which = higher moving mass, which is a bad thing.

Doesn't make the cartridge bad of course, just a little less capable than the low output version.

One upside from using a high output MC into a MM phono stage is that while you need to use more gain, the inherent noise should be lower than with a MM cartridge. Technical reasons but essentially you have a lower source impedance.
So unless you have audible and bothersome noise I wouldn't worry about how far you need to turn the knob.

Very helpful thanks. Something just seems wrong about feeding a pre with too little input but that is just emotional, I suppose.

 

[bec143]

Does anyone think there is any substantial quality Dif between the mega font mi MM and the Rega Phone Mc, besides gain? New they are $195 v $550, so substantial

 

[Mr Pig]

I wouldn't bother with MC cartridges at all on a Planar3. I'd stick to MM until you've got a much more capable turntable.

Robert is right, the low output version is always better. The whole point of MC cartridges is lower moving mass and more windings on the coil runs counter to that. They also are still low output compared to a typical MM cartridge, which is why you're having to turn the volume knob up more.

Having said that, turning the knob more is not a problem, that is what it's for! If you are happy with the sound then leave it alone and enjoy your records maybe?

 

[Tony L]

That said I’d still cite the Denon DL-110 as a good cartridge at its price point. It can be found for about £180 with a little shopping around and won’t suffer from incorrect loading and capacitance the way MMs can. I used one back when I had a Spacedeck and always liked it. Another classic design that has been in production for many decades.

 

[bec143]

Thanks!

I have to say I am disappointed so far. Perhaps I had unrealistic expectations from all the praise for the P3 and the Technics 1500C and the like in many review rags.

As I said, my main goal is to browse record shops and enjoy vinyl and not get wrapped up in an upgrade path again. BUT- I bought a few quality pressings of albums that I also have in CD: Wilco YHF, Lush Life, Know what I Mean, Revolver. The TT is flat and lifeless compared with my Naim CD5/Hicap. Less bass extension and just plodding and lacking dynamics.. Same when I c/w some lossless files I streamed. Others quickly agree without prompting- but using different adjectives.

I have not touched my system in years which has some older components but where I was happy to stop at the time: a YBA Passion Integre- which is a very solid 100W Integrated, and Audio Physic Virgos. It has its faults but can sound amazing with good source material.

One thing I was wondering about is whether the very basic phono Rega phono stage could be a culprit? I would not have considered something like it in the past.

I don’t want to start obsessing again (which I am already). I am happy to mostly listen to the entire world's music catalogue a Sonos system on the kitchen.

But current state is preventing my goal of just enjoying LPs and I might just take it back. I am a scientist and sometimes experiments fail!. Getting vinyl to an enjoyable stage for me just may require a bigger investment of cash and time than I want.





I

 

[Mr Pig]

As I said, my main goal is to browse record shops and enjoy vinyl and not get wrapped up in an upgrade path again. BUT- I bought a few quality pressings of albums that I also have in CD: Wilco YHF, Lush Life, Know what I Mean, Revolver. The TT is flat and lifeless compared with my Naim CD5/Hicap.

Buy a Rega Exact.

Most MC cartridges have what you might describe as a lush, soft sound compared to MM. This works ok when the deck has enough dynamics and transparency to compensate but on a less talented deck a MC cart often just sounds too soft.

What you want is a cartridge that's punchy, weighty and forgiving of record quality, that's the Exact. Or a good Audio Technica MM. The Hana is just too lush. Who recommended it?

Note though that nothing is going to sound the same as a CD player. It takes a lot of money to get a turntable which approaches the power of bass CD gives you easily but vinyl wins in many other ways. Music is more expressive, involving and 'human' sounding on a good vinyl system. You want to listen for hours rather than just being impressed initially. Even a Rega P1 can keep you listening for hours. You just need top get the balance right.

 

[bec143]

Buy a Rega Exact.

Most MC cartridges have what you might describe as a lush, soft sound compared to MM. This works ok when the deck has enough dynamics and transparency to compensate but on a less talented deck a MC cart often just sounds too soft.

What you want is a cartridge that's punchy, weighty and forgiving of record quality, that's the Exact. Or a good Audio Technica MM. The Hana is just too lush. Who recommended it?

Note though that nothing is going to sound the same as a CD player. It takes a lot of money to get a turntable which approaches the power of bass CD gives you easily but vinyl wins in many other ways. Music is more expressive, involving and 'human' sounding on a good vinyl system. You want to listen for hours rather than just being impressed initially. Even a Rega P1 can keep you listening for hours. You just need top get the balance right.

This sounds like good advice. Is it generally known that this TT can't benefit from better carts?

The cart was bundled with the Planar 3 by Hawthorne Stereo, where i have shopped for many years, They are a premier US Naim dealer and have a huge inventory of used equipment and very into analogue. They are usually spot on with advice and I trust them. So I just took this home,.

Maybe I would be happier with the Technics 1500C they have at same price point, which has its own pre and MM carts (but not a great one at baseline).

 

[Mr Pig]

Maybe I would be happier with the Technics 1500C they have at same price point, which has its own pre and MM carts (but not a great one at baseline).

Maybe, the Technics decks are very good, but as you already have the Rega I'd be trying to fix that first.

It's all about context and taste. From what you are saying that you are missing, I think the Hana was a poor choice. In another system a different person might be perfectly happy with it.

It's not a question of quality. The P3 is good enough to let MC cartridges work but that doesn't mean it's the best balance. I'd put a MM cart on a much better deck before I'd put a MC on a P3.

 

[bec143]

Any thoughts as to how the phono stage is playing a role here? I can certainly go up on that, especially used. This one is a wall wart with a slightly larger buddy in tow.

I will listen at the store today- they have P3s set up with different MM carts, and I would consider up to a P6 if that makes a diff. I find it hard to compare in the store c/w home, just too many differences. That's why I always brought stuff home and Hawthorne is great that way. But I don't want to get back into comparing a NAC82 to a 202, etc. I will avoid listening to uber decks- it's not the cash, more that I promised myself to keep it simple and enjoy.

But I am not enjoying yet.

 

[ChrisS]

I have to say I am disappointed so far. Perhaps I had unrealistic expectations from all the praise for the P3 and the Technics 1500C and the like in many review rags.

Sorry to hear this. Did you get an inkling of this at the store? What tracking force are you using?

I don’t know the Hana so don’t know what it might be contributing, but it wasn’t what I expected. I was expecting an Exact or AT.

Any thoughts as to how the phono stage is playing a role here?

[was typing when you posted] But I also wonder about the phono pre in particular. It’s very entry level, and I would think more appropriate for a P1 or P2. I wouldn’t think the built in stage in the Technics would help, but I haven’t heard it.

The most natural combo would be the Fono Mk5 with the Exact. ATs could work, but the stage and arm lead capacitance might be high. Hawthorne would know. I’m using the VM95ML in an LP12. People also like the 540 and 740.

But the Exact, Fono, P3 is or should be a coherent package and would be a good frame of reference. I wouldn’t think that combo should be flat and lifeless.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I wouldn't bother with MC cartridges at all on a Planar3. I'd stick to MM until you've got a much more capable turntable.

Robert is right, the low output version is always better. The whole point of MC cartridges is lower moving mass and more windings on the coil runs counter to that. They also are still low output compared to a typical MM cartridge, which is why you're having to turn the volume knob up more.

Having said that, turning the knob more is not a problem, that is what it's for! If you are happy with the sound then leave it alone and enjoy your records maybe?

I do think it's generally true that low output MC is better than high output MC, but it's not a universal truth (as anybody who has listened to the (relatively recently introduced) Dynavector 10X5 low output version might be able to attest). Though I think it does hold true for the Hana cartridges. I used a 10X5 high output MC very happily into the MM stage on my Albarry preamp, and just turned the volume up a fair bit. It was fine. If it's sounding strained at reasonable volume levels then yes, maybe that's an indication that you're exceeding the amp's comfort zone, but HOMC are designed to run into MM stages, so it's not particularly likely that you'll have a problem unless the amp is feeble.

 

[Amber Audio]

Thanks!

I have to say I am disappointed so far. Perhaps I had unrealistic expectations from all the praise for the P3 and the Technics 1500C and the like in many review rags.

As I said, my main goal is to browse record shops and enjoy vinyl and not get wrapped up in an upgrade path again. BUT- I bought a few quality pressings of albums that I also have in CD: Wilco YHF, Lush Life, Know what I Mean, Revolver. The TT is flat and lifeless compared with my Naim CD5/Hicap. Less bass extension and just plodding and lacking dynamics.. Same when I c/w some lossless files I streamed. Others quickly agree without prompting- but using different adjectives.

I have not touched my system in years which has some older components but where I was happy to stop at the time: a YBA Passion Integre- which is a very solid 100W Integrated, and Audio Physic Virgos. It has its faults but can sound amazing with good source material.

One thing I was wondering about is whether the very basic phono Rega phono stage could be a culprit? I would not have considered something like it in the past.

I don’t want to start obsessing again (which I am already). I am happy to mostly listen to the entire world's music catalogue a Sonos system on the kitchen.

But current state is preventing my goal of just enjoying LPs and I might just take it back. I am a scientist and sometimes experiments fail!. Getting vinyl to an enjoyable stage for me just may require a bigger investment of cash and time than I want.





I

Suggestion - Take those LPs to your dealer. Listen to them on a higher end deck into a system as close to yours as poss in store - LP12 Majik/1200G/VPI kind of level with equivalent cart/stage, get yourself a benchmark of what a significant amount of cash layout provides.

Listen to your P3 rig afterwards. What’s the gap in performance?

Maybe that’ll point you towards leaving the whole LP revival thing alone and save/spend the dosh elsewhere or maybe realise you have to aim higher and increase your budget.

 

[Tigerjones]

That said I’d still cite the Denon DL-110 as a good cartridge at its price point. It can be found for about £180 with a little shopping around and won’t suffer from incorrect loading and capacitance the way MMs can. I used one back when I had a Spacedeck and always liked it. Another classic design that has been in production for many decades.

Agreed. Although not the bargain it once was these are still one of my favourites.

 

[Mr Pig]

But I also wonder about the phono pre in particular. It’s very entry level, and I would think more appropriate for a P1 or P2.

I think it is a bit budget but the bottom line is that even a fully budget set up, like a P1-Plus with Carbon cartridge and built in phono stage doesn't sound dull.

I'm not saying the Hana/P3 combo is no good, it's just clearly not the kind of sound the OP is looking for.

 

[Graham67]

2mV is on the low side for some phono stages and a budget non adjustable stage would typically be more used to being paired with MM carts with a higher output.
41db gain is typical for a fixed MM stage but I suspect your cart could do with a little more gain from the phono stage.
With insufficient gain your cart may sound a little flat and lacking in dynamics.

 

[tomek]

LO always better then HO.

 

[dalryc]

Regardless of sound, which will take a lot of hours before needle gets worn, MM cartriges stylus are easy replaceable - unlike MC versions.

 

[Eoin]

I do think it's generally true that low output MC is better than high output MC, but it's not a universal truth (as anybody who has listened to the (relatively recently introduced) Dynavector 10X5 low output version might be able to attest). Though I think it does hold true for the Hana cartridges. I used a 10X5 high output MC very happily into the MM stage on my Albarry preamp, and just turned the volume up a fair bit. It was fine. If it's sounding strained at reasonable volume levels then yes, maybe that's an indication that you're exceeding the amp's comfort zone, but HOMC are designed to run into MM stages, so it's not particularly likely that you'll have a problem unless the amp is feeble.

How did you find the low output 10x5? I run the high version.