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Anti-skate or What Am I Doing Wrong?

M

Mick Seymour

Member
I'll soon to be setting up an Orbe SE/SME 309/AT33 PTG II. I feel I've mastered all of the steps in tonearm setup over the years except for AS. After about 2 years with whatever cartridge I'm using, I always end up with the cantilever pointing towards the centre of the record. I must be doing something wrong.

I've used tracks on HFS75 and the Cartridge Man's test records and even an Audio Asylum piece added by @Tony L to this very forum which involved multiple plays of the same track and adjusting AS taking notice of where the dynamics sit in relation to the sound stage. None of these have prevented misaligned cantilevers.

With the 309, the manual says set AS to the same as VTF. I did read somewhere that the AS on the 309 is a bit strong.

So... What is the secret sauce I'm missing?
 
If you dial back your tracking weight to zero, the arm should "float", which is to say that it doesn't put the needle down when released. You can then observe your antiskate, or bias, which should pull it away from the centre. With the arm floating, if you blow gently on the arm it will swing to the centre, then the bias or AS will pull it back to the outside. Your arm should be doing this if AS is set remotely right. You can play tunes on it later, but is this basic condition satisfied?
 
In my experience over the years using my ears to adjust AS I usually wind up somewhere between 0.8 & 1.2g depending on the tonearm and cart. I've almost always found that matching tracking force directly to AS -as many manufacturers suggest- was too much and in some cases was even the cause of playback issues such as increased skipping events, perhaps this is a good starting point but I usually find that AS set at somewhere around half TF sounds/works best.
 
It's been a long time since I've set up a SME tonearm, over 20 years but I do remember they were remarkably simple to set up, here's a good quick video guide.....

 
Darren L said:
I'd also agree with tpetsch that about 1/2 the VTF is normally adequate for Antiskate/Bias
Click to expand...
This.

After years of messing around with test LPs and oscilloscopes, I found that 90% of the time, the correct result came out at about half the tracking weight. Obviously I still use the LP and oscilloscope method to ensure optimum performance when I'm reviewing a cartridge, but the rest of the time, I just dial up half the VTF!
 
Yes, half to two-thirds here. Set by ear. I actively avoid test records like HFS75, HiFi News etc as they encourage setting for an absolute worst case scenario that just sucks the life out of most records. If all you play is exceptionally loud-cut Berlin techno then yes, that HiFi News album may be of use, but for the rest you’ll get better results by ear.

PS FWIW I almost always end up on the manufacturers mid-point or just a hair above, e.g. if the recommended tracking weight is 1.8-2.2g chances are I’ll end up somewhere between 2.0 and 2.1g.
 
I concur with the above. Whatever you think the anti-skate should be, half it. My experience is that less anti-skate is better than too much. Half the tracking weight is a decent ballpark if you don't know how to test it.
 
Tony L said:
you’ll get better results by ear.
Click to expand...
I've heard this said before but I'm not really sure how it works in practice. What are you listening for?

I'm interested in this thread as I've recently had a few records sticking that previously tracked fine - which makes me wonder if my anti-skate (or something else) is out of wack.
 
paulfromcamden said:
I've heard this said before but I'm not really sure how it works in practice. What are you listening for?

I'm interested in this thread as I've recently had a few records sticking that previously tracked fine - which makes me wonder if my anti-skate (or something else) is out of wack.
Click to expand...
Basically just looking for the best/most pleasing frequency response balance for your given system. Set the AS to 0.5 and listen, then to 1.5 and listen/compare which one sounds more natural, more musically balanced, you can't damage anything, have fun with it. ...Experiment, heck, listen to a track or two at 2.0, then at zero, then in the middle just so you know whats going on with your particular setup. Listening to a mono track -phono pre set to mono- can sometimes help too, offering a different perspective on AS settings.
 
Just to add to the host of confirmations here, I have found both empirically (measurements) and through listening, that 2/3 of VTF yields lowest distortion.
 
and to add to the vague but 'it works' theory I do 0.6 Anti skate for every 1g of tracking force and it seems fine.
As to what you may hear, not much is my experience although in theory there will distortion on either the L or R channels depending on your weight selection being too low or too high.
 
Setting by ear is a very vague term. Tracking is easier as the midpoint is usually fine, anti skate at half to two thirds is generally fine. Some carts just don’t track that well & you can end of side distortion regardless.

If it becomes a massive bother use another source, don’t be a hostage to format.
 
paulfromcamden said:
I'm interested in this thread as I've recently had a few records sticking that previously tracked fine - which makes me wonder if my anti-skate (or something else) is out of wack.
Click to expand...

Most common cause for that IME is the cueing platform not descending far enough and catching the arm-tube. It may need adjustment if you have changed to a shallower cartridge.

What arm is it?
 
Tony L said:
Most common cause for that IME is the cueing platform not descending far enough and catching the arm-tube. It may need adjustment if you have changed to a shallower cartridge.

What arm is it?
Click to expand...
It's some kind of Acos Lustre - but not a proper GST, I'm guessing some kind of OEM version harvested from another deck.
It's what came fitted to the Lenco when I bought it as a finished build and it's been fine until now.
Cartridge is a M44 in a reasonably chunky Fidelity Research headshell.

Just stuck a record on and I can see a 1-2mm gap between the cueing platform and arm.

I've dialled back the antiskate and will see if it tracks any better.
 
Mick Seymour said:
I'll soon to be setting up an Orbe SE/SME 309/AT33 PTG II. I feel I've mastered all of the steps in tonearm setup over the years except for AS. After about 2 years with whatever cartridge I'm using, I always end up with the cantilever pointing towards the centre of the record. I must be doing something wrong.

I've used tracks on HFS75 and the Cartridge Man's test records and even an Audio Asylum piece added by @Tony L to this very forum which involved multiple plays of the same track and adjusting AS taking notice of where the dynamics sit in relation to the sound stage. None of these have prevented misaligned cantilevers.

With the 309, the manual says set AS to the same as VTF. I did read somewhere that the AS on the 309 is a bit strong.

So... What is the secret sauce I'm missing?
Click to expand...
It seems like you're applying very high AS force , I've used 309 in the past with quite few MC cartridges and half of tracking force is maximum I ever ended up with, in most cases 1/3 measured on 315Hz tracks but I don't use highly modulated ones , when doing same thing by ear I normally ended up nudging AS up a little so 1/2 up to just below 2/3 .
I'd start with balanced and floating tonearm and see what happens when you increase AS , observe how quick it travels towards the arm rest to give you and idea if filament spring used for AS works as intended- at low setting arm should be just floating
 
The primary thing you are doing wrong is using a test record. Also, don’t use the blank record setup either. Set it to half to two thirds the tracking weight. Some even prefer no anti-skate at all but, on the cartridges and arms I have tried this on it sounds clearly worse than some anti-skate. If your VTF is 1.8g then 1/1.1g of side force sounds optimum. So, if you lower the stylus on a blank record (no grooves) then no anti-skate results in what I would describe as brisk movement toward the centre, whilst optimum anti-skate results in steady + movement toward the centre - so still reasonably quick.
 
Depends to a certain extent on the cart. E.g., Koetsus are noted for needing hardly any bias at all. It could, I guess, also depend upon the arm to some extent. I've experienced the O.P.'s canti. slew from too much AS, and suspected, on my Orbe/Five, that SME's AS dial was a bit o.t.t. Regardless, I've never exceeded half and settled on a little over a third on my 9" arms with various m/c cart's. 12" arms should only need a smidgen of bias at most but prob. none.

Logic tells me that (a) you can underbias (or apply none) for a few hundred hours (?) to see by how much the canti. corrects itself or (b) set up your alignment geometry to compensate (tricky) or in fact do both for s.q. and remedial work combined. I've not done this; only thought about it. If your bias was really too much, I'd expect you you notice its effects sonically and possibly lifting off/cueing.
 
tpetsch said:
Basically just looking for the best/most pleasing frequency response balance for your given system. Set the AS to 0.5 and listen, then to 1.5 and listen/compare which one sounds more natural, more musically balanced,
Click to expand...
This presupposes that you listen to music that has anything natural or musically balanced. If it's just rock, pop or dance, good luck with that.
 
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