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Amplifier frequency range. Old Naim

Discussion in 'audio' started by Allaboutmusic, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. Allaboutmusic

    Allaboutmusic Member

    Hi all,

    I was recently visiting my local hifi dealer and had a interesting discussion about old vs new naim amplifiers, his view was that the older ones were better (up to nait 3) due to them having a smaller frequency range, so what there was, was more punchy compared to the more modern amplifiers which have a much wider frequency range.

    Does anyone have a view on this, agree or disagree? What would be a modern equivalent to the older naim be?

    Thanks
     
  2. Cesare

    Cesare pfm Member

    Sounds like complete nonsense to me.
     
    Emlin likes this.
  3. pocketkitchen

    pocketkitchen Registered User

    If I remember correctly, older Naim amps were bandwidth-limited. I used to love mine but that sounds like the dealer is making up any old shite. The Naim sound has certainly changed over the years but they're still fairly dynamic.
     
  4. colasblue

    colasblue pfm Member

    The dealer is spouting complete "rowlocks". The Naim design philosophy has always included having a bandwidth way wider than the useable audio range and the implementation hasn't ever changed very much. The oldest gear will comfortably operate between about 3Hz and 40KHz
     
    Jonathan likes this.
  5. simon g

    simon g Grumpy Old Man

    Time to go to a different dealer. Pure twattery.
     
    Emlin and Hempknight like this.
  6. whatsnext

    whatsnext Naimless

    If they were so wonderful why are so many owners for ever trying to improve them. It is like an addiction. They are fantastic but
     
  7. Robert

    Robert Tapehead

    The pre amps did include some HF tailoring IIRC - pretty sure they were rolled down above 20kHz though not sharply. Certainly the phono cards had a little more roll-off than many other designs.
    Perhaps newer models aren't? - I haven't followed developments at Naim for a good decade or more.
     
  8. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    Older Naim had a stronger signature than newer stuff, in general. A bit added, a bit taken away, and maybe the recipe is just a *bit* sweeter. It's not for me, but some like it.
     
  9. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    My recollection is that at least one early Naim amp had a 'tweaked' RIAA response which may have changed the sound quality.
     
  10. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Arkless

    2.5Hz - 60KHz @-3dB points for 1979 NAP250.
     
    Emlin likes this.
  11. Bob McC

    Bob McC Living the life of Riley

    Do you have to thread crap every post about Naim?

    You’re beginning to look deranged.
     
    JimDog likes this.
  12. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    Is assume that's for the power amp into an 8 Ohm load?

    I was thinking more about the pre-amp and particularly the RIAA. Just had a look and an ancient 'Hi Fi Choice' shows an RIAA departure of -1dB at 50Hz, but of -2dB at 20kHz. Overall, a general slope up with frequency but with rolloffs at each end. This is for a NAIT. Another Naim amp RIAA shows -1dB points at 20/20kHz but flatter in between.
     
  13. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Arkless

    Yep that's for just the power amp, driven from a low impedance source and into 8R resistive load and from a simulation of the circuitry of a 1979 NAP250 which I personally reverse engineered... way before the interweb!

    I'll have a look at the phono stage as I have it in my simulator and will report back.
     
  14. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    TBH It wouldn't surprise me if the HFC details were inaccurate. Reviews are by Martin Colloms FWIW. If you've read my webpage on his review of the Armstrong 800 amps you can see why I'd not be certain they were right! :)
     
  15. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    IIRC the FR limitation was in the preamp and it set the ‘safe operating range’ for the power amp. Hence the often stated requirement not to use a Naim power amp with a third party preamp, but doing the reverse was fine. I think there were certain situation where the power amps could become unstable (and not just by using the wrong speaker cables). Any bandwidth limitation was way out of the audio range so an irrelevance to the listener, it was just there for stability as I understood it.
     
  16. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Arkless

    OK only have MC stage here but it does have a bass roll off yes which starts at about 150Hz, is indeed 1dB down at 50Hz and -3dB by 20Hz. Above 200Hz it's within +/- 0.3dB to 20KHz with a gradual roll off above that and -3dB around 250KHz. It does trough down in the mid with a min point at 1KHz but as I said it's still within a fraction of a dB.
     
  17. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    Does the "+/- 0.3db" region show a slope up with frequency?
     
  18. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Arkless

    3Hz - 150KHz @-3dB points for Naim line stage for completeness... I must stress that in all these sims the stages are being used alone rather than in line and are being fed from 0R source and driving an infinite load impedance.

    I believe some Naim pres had a second "line stage" they called "time alignment board" or some such and I don't have that loaded in my sim.

    Only the NAP250 is from a known model year... The other circuits I got, IIRC, from the web sites of either Martin Clark or Pigletsdad.... whichever has all the Naim schematics on it...
    if there was versions from different eras I can't recall which I used (yes I could check it out...)
     
  19. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Arkless

    It slopes up from 1KHz in both directions... that's what I meant by "troughs at 1KHz"...
     
  20. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    The preamp line-stage design was changed from the 72 onwards and it is from here that the phrase ‘time alignment’ entered the vocabulary. This was retrofittable to the earlier 32.5 by swapping the 329 plug-in boards (one per channel) for 729 boards, i.e. it was a ‘different’ line stage rather than an ‘additional’ one.

    PS FWIW I played around with both sets for an eternity and eventually came to the conclusion I preferred the earlier 329 boards! They certainly sound very different.
     

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