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Alexei Navalny jailed

Tony L

Tony L

Administrator
Putin’s dictatorship pushes ever further with the jailing of Navalny (Guardian). Britain Trump is also in the spotlight and facing increasing pressure from the new US Democrat administration due to the UK Conservative government’s very deliberate blind-eye to Russian oligarch money laundering here. This being covered at length on Newsnight right now. Emily M even found chess master Gary Kasparov to interview, and he’s not a big fan of Putin!
 
... and in real life being weirder than fiction, Buster Gonad loses record to Alexei Navalny. I do hope he gets plenty of back up internationally and in Russia. Russia trump must go.
 
If the Russian people can keep up their protests... there is the real possibility of change. Putin is so obviously an absolute amoral criminal shit running a Gangster State.

But no 'Leader' can function forever without the support of the population. There will already be those waiting in the wings to 'remove' Putin. Whether his replacement will be any more committed to Democracy and the rule (rather than the making up on the hoof) of Law..remains to be seen... but I reckon this could be the beginning of the end for Putin.
 
I have long since thought that it is important to let the people of any nation determine their own future.

What do we know of Navalny? Most here will know nothing beyond what they see, hear or read from the news media. I would be horrified if we had Putin as leader of the UK, but we do have a Trump Lite Prime Minister. Let us clean our own house first before interfering in other people's business.

Whatever the Government [of the UK] may say, Russian money has more influence and power than what we little people might wish. Nothing more than hot air will emit from Mr Raab, and Mr Johnson. But maybe that is right enough.

Let the Russians sort their own government out, and let us concentrate on sorting our own government out.

Only a thought. George
 
I doubt we’ll see any change with Putin’s authoritarian hold on power for the foreseeable future unless something truly horrific unfolds - he will not walk away from this attempt at his power/authority, his rise through the ranks of the KGB and FSB to his maintained figurehead position over the previous two decades is not to be underestimated. I read a fascinating book a few years ago that went into depth regarding his restructuring of Russia in the early 2000’s and how he co-opted the oligarchs that have controlled Russian political and social life over the previous centuries into a new movement that will maintain their hold on power indefinitely.

As for Alexi Navanly?, he’s either got the backing of dissident oligarchs on his side who want genuine economic and social change throughout the Russian state and can protect him from Putin’s attack hounds or he’s a dead man walking.

Either way he is incredibly brave.
 
Beau of the fifth signs off all his YouTube video segments with “it’s just a thought”, I guessed you picked up the phrase as a viewer but obviously not.
 
That's fine.

Thinking of Navalny, I am sure that he is a thorn in Putin's side, but I do wonder how much support he has in Russia among ordinary people. Reports vary on that. Arresting him is a monstrous thing to do, and poisoning him also. But there is something odd going on, or things that seem not to add up. Why would he go back to Russia if he had been poisoned in Russia and successfully treated for it in Germany? If he could be poisoned in Russia outside of prison, surely he could have a fatal "accident" in detention. That would be ultra-suspicious, but Putin could easily control the reporting about a death in jail.

Looking at the 1917 Revolution, the Bolsheviks were mostly working outside Tzarist Russia beforehand. Surely Navalny might have been well advised to stay out until his time came to lead a new push for power.

This is a very strange case indeed. Stranger than the Litvinenko poisoning in the UK.

No doubt that the governments of many countries run on moral and ethical standards we abhor in the West, but it is difficult to do anything about it when our Western governments seem to also run on dubious standards. I am sure that the Chinese Communist Party must be delighted by the spectacle of the rough transfer to President Biden. Perhaps the new broom in the USA may sweep a cleaner path concerning Russia, but the UK can have no effect on Russia what so ever.

Russian influence on UK politicians is nothing new. Remember Lord Mandelsohn's friendships with Russian oligarchs. I don't know if these Russian money men have influence at the highest levels of the Conservative party, but it would not surprise me.

It is all very worrying, but the power of money trumps democracy - sorry to say.

Best wishes from George
 
Putin is 68. Navalny is very brave but just a few years too early I think. Can't see Putin 'retiring' yet.
 
maxflinn said:
The day Biden got inaugurated was the same day Navalny decided to go back home.

Coincidence?
Click to expand...

Max, after four years of Trump, in retrospect would you say that your decision to back him in 2016 was a wise one given all that happened? Or do you still think Hillary would have been worse?

very interested to hear your thoughts.
 
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George J said:
That's fine.

Thinking of Navalny, I am sure that he is a thorn in Putin's side, but I do wonder how much support he has in Russia among ordinary people. Reports vary on that. Arresting him is a monstrous thing to do, and poisoning him also. But there is something odd going on, or things that seem not to add up. Why would he go back to Russia if he had been poisoned in Russia and successfully treated for it in Germany? If he could be poisoned in Russia outside of prison, surely he could have a fatal "accident" in detention. That would be ultra-suspicious, but Putin could easily control the reporting about a death in jail.

Looking at the 1917 Revolution, the Bolsheviks were mostly working outside Tzarist Russia beforehand. Surely Navalny might have been well advised to stay out until his time came to lead a new push for power.

This is a very strange case indeed. Stranger than the Litvinenko poisoning in the UK.

No doubt that the governments of many countries run on moral and ethical standards we abhor in the West, but it is difficult to do anything about it when our Western governments seem to also run on dubious standards. I am sure that the Chinese Communist Party must be delighted by the spectacle of the rough transfer to President Biden. Perhaps the new broom in the USA may sweep a cleaner path concerning Russia, but the UK can have no effect on Russia what so ever.

Russian influence on UK politicians is nothing new. Remember Lord Mandelsohn's friendships with Russian oligarchs. I don't know if these Russian money men have influence at the highest levels of the Conservative party, but it would not surprise me.

It is all very worrying, but the power of money trumps democracy - sorry to say.

Best wishes from George
Click to expand...
Do any have an influence in UK politics?
Johnson made one a Lord last year for services rendered.
There’s your answer.
 
Tony L said:
Cue Q-Anon-grade alt-right conspiracy theory served up in multiple one-hour+ RT YouTube video format...
Click to expand...
Anyone who thinks the US doesn't closely coordinate with the enemies of their main enemy is just naive.

Navalny is quite obviously US-backed.

His arrest was even headline news here in Ireland.

Do you still believe, after all this time in the conspiracy theory that Putin helped Trump to get elected?
 
It is a while back now, but there was an analysis, including interviews with a variety of ordinary Rusians, and Putin had, certainly 3-4 years back, huge support amongst the older generations of very ordinary people, those who regarded themselves as having done well under communist rule. Lots of the elderly and poor of the Soviet Union suffred hardships when communism fell and he has done things to partially reverse that.

Do not think that Putin is trully unpopular, he is not.

Who here would choose to live in a state where the basic foodstuffs are hugely subsidised, has free healthcare and a doctor for every several hundred of the population, and has totally abolished poverty and hunger? The Cubans didn't - they wanted freedom above all that.

That was and is not the case in Russia, but so far only the younger Russians crave freedom above pretty much all else.
 
maxflinn said:
Do you still believe, after all this time in the conspiracy theory that Putin helped Trump to get elected?
Click to expand...

To recap: everything I predicted about Trump prior to his election came true. He was exactly the narcissistic far-right white-supremacist I suggested and he pushed America right to the very brink of becoming a fascist state. I am confident that during the upcoming court cases that will hopefully occupy the rest of his life we will find very strong links to Russian oligarch money, influence and interference.

You on the other hand drank deep of the Kool Aid and still seem wedded to your Info Wars/Q-Anon-grade echo chambers. Even now after everything you believed in has failed or been found to be entirely untrue you are still here, still believing in the same popularist internet bullshit.
 
Does anyone know what Navalny actually stands for?

I came across a Twitter thread, via someone I trust, that claimed he holds some unpleasant nationalist views, but all the supporting links were in Russian. However, the wikipedia article about Navalny tends to support this view:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Navalny#"The_People"_movement
On 23 June 2007, Navalny co-founded a new political movement, simply named "The People", which upheld the positions of "democratic nationalism", defined as a fight for democracy and the rights of ethnic Russians; according to one of Navalny's biographers, Navalny differentiates the ethnic and social aspects of the term, highlighting the latter.

In June 2008, the movement joined forces with two other Russian nationalist movements, Movement Against Illegal Immigration (MAII) and Great Russia, to form a new coalition, Russian National Movement. Navalny declared the movement would participate in the next parliamentary elections, planning to get a great share of votes; he added, "up to 60% of the population upholds spontaneous nationalism, but it is not legally effectuated". Later the same month, the MAII and The People signed a cooperation agreement; at the procedure, he defined the "new political nationalism" as democratic, "fundamentally and statistically", adding, "we can teach blatant liberals a thing or two". He also declared he wanted to distance the coalition from the skinheads, calling for close collaboration with the leftists and the liberals for fair elections the coalition "would win", and demanded political liberalization and early parliamentary elections in Russia
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Putin is an authoritarian thug but until I know more about Navalny, I'm not willing to cheerlead for him.

Also, as @Vinny points out, it's wrong to assume he is hugely unpopular with the Russian electorate.

Also as @George J points out, being unhappy with a country's leader does not give us a right to try to change it (e.g. by channelling support to the opposition).

Happy to condemn the harassment (and worse) of Navalny though. I've no time for Putin.
 
George J said:
That's fine.

Thinking of Navalny, I am sure that he is a thorn in Putin's side, but I do wonder how much support he has in Russia among ordinary people. Reports vary on that. Arresting him is a monstrous thing to do, and poisoning him also. But there is something odd going on, or things that seem not to add up. Why would he go back to Russia if he had been poisoned in Russia and successfully treated for it in Germany? If he could be poisoned in Russia outside of prison, surely he could have a fatal "accident" in detention. That would be ultra-suspicious, but Putin could easily control the reporting about a death in jail.

Looking at the 1917 Revolution, the Bolsheviks were mostly working outside Tzarist Russia beforehand. Surely Navalny might have been well advised to stay out until his time came to lead a new push for power.

This is a very strange case indeed. Stranger than the Litvinenko poisoning in the UK.

No doubt that the governments of many countries run on moral and ethical standards we abhor in the West, but it is difficult to do anything about it when our Western governments seem to also run on dubious standards. I am sure that the Chinese Communist Party must be delighted by the spectacle of the rough transfer to President Biden. Perhaps the new broom in the USA may sweep a cleaner path concerning Russia, but the UK can have no effect on Russia what so ever.

Russian influence on UK politicians is nothing new. Remember Lord Mandelsohn's friendships with Russian oligarchs. I don't know if these Russian money men have influence at the highest levels of the Conservative party, but it would not surprise me.

It is all very worrying, but the power of money trumps democracy - sorry to say.

Best wishes from George
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree that all is not clear. First of all, can anyone who is not a ruthless gangster/dictator rule Russia? Keep it together under one government authority? Also, I have been told by someone who has been reading a lot on the subject that Navalny's movement has strong populist-nationalist elements. In the sense that if it came to power it might not be an idyllic liberal democracy. Also curious that Navalny can lead a protest that puts tens of thousands of people on the street, and Putin has thousands arrested. Who are these people? What do they want? Do they want a liberal democracy, or simply to take over from Putin? And, as you say, why would Navalny return, knowing he will be arrested. Would he not be in a better (and safer!) position to lead his movement from abroad? Of course, he could easily be bumped off abroad.
 
droodzilla said:
Putin is an authoritarian thug but until I know more about Navalny, I'm not willing to cheerlead for him.
Click to expand...

Likewise, and I wasn’t. My issue is with the Putin dictatorship/police state. Similar treatment with Pussy Riot, who I’m far happier to cheerlead! Putin is a far-right dictator who uses violence and intimidation against any opposition and the free press. I don’t really care who Navalny is, I’m just citing this as an example of the whole oppressive culture, one where LBGT folk and racial or religious minorities are openly persecuted. The thread intention was also to shine a light on our government being so open to using the UK to launder Russian oligarch money.
 
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