Advice on Tannoy 12" Silver, Red, Gold, HPD

[ToTo Man]

Thank you all for your inputs and insights. This is really helpful.

I have a Dayton audio mic which I was able to attach to my phone and run some frequency sweeps.. some in cabinets, some with just the driver outside the cabinets.

Would this suffice or do I need something more precise? I measured about 2 inches away from the cabinets and drivers. Is that too close?

Here's one of the sweeps of either Silver or Red driver (I don't recall) outside the cabinet. Do I measure both the drivers and compare the graphs for close match as well as for the comb-filtering?

And speaking of quirks with the vintage Tannoys, my pair of Reds come from a mint pair of Daltons. These speakers are quite special as in they severely lack in bass however the vocals and highs on these are to die for. Now the quirk is, even though these were sold as a pair to the original owner (I'm the 3rd owner). One driver has an Orange dust cap and the other has a Black dust cap. The original owner never opened the cabinets and didn't even know they were different. To my ears they sound the same. Does anyone know if there are any audible differences between these early Reds and later Reds?

Daltons:

Reds from Daltons:

I'm not familiar with your measurement software so wouldn't know how to configure the settings so that the comb-filtering is easier to see. I use RoomEQWizard with a 50dB scale spanning 40dB-90dB and 1/48 octave graph smoothing.

Regardless of what equipment you use to measure, to assess pair matching it's vital to keep all test variables constant. I'd strongly recommend keeping the mic in a fixed location and bringing each driver over to it, one at a time, making sure the driver is placed at exactly the same location and angle as the other driver was. Measuring at 1 metre distance or from your listening seat is fine for this, if you get too close then you risk measuring artefacts from the pepperpot that are not audible at normal listening distances.

To be honest, unless you're OCD about this kind of stuff I wouldn't worry about it, - some ears are more sensitive to the "dual-concentric sound" than others. If both drivers are well-matched and the treble sounds open and clear and you don't notice a 'choppy' quality in the decay of high frequency harmonics then you can relax and stop looking for problems!

 

[cooky1257]

You can drive yourself mad. Flat doesn't come into it ;-)

Berkerleys 'match' close enough imo with the overall curve reasonably smooth up to the very familiar Tannoy DC 10-15khz hump.

 

[Cesare]

For aligning the compression drivers, I used FuzzMeasure with a measurement mic around 1m from the driver, which was sat on the floor. Tweaking the screws holding the compression driver on made a significant difference to the 2nd and 3rd order distortion, but little change to the main output, so a simple sweep isn't enough to tell you the whole story. I spent a couple of hours on my pair, and didn't find any logic to the changes I was seeing, a tweak here, a tweak there, loosen enough to move the driver and re-attach, rinse and repeat, then suddenly the results were excellent but I did not feel I could understand mechanically what was going on, I had no intuition.

I also noticed from your images that the speakers were away from the wall - am I seeing that right? The lancaster is designed to be against the wall (as are the corner cabinets of course!) so if this is not an arrangement you are comfortable with, a different cabinet design may be better.

 

[hermit]

I'd place the speakers further apart if you have the room to do so.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

TMy long Tannoy thread gives a little detail here, though it is hard to put into words and very much a ‘feel’ thing.

I have just searched for that thread but couldn't see it.

 

[Tony L]

I have just searched for that thread but couldn't see it.

It is here. As with all my classic room threads it is a multi-year journey/blog so things were learned, many decisions made and some reversed etc. My current position is an entirely original pair of 15” Golds in early-60s Lockwood cabs and I have learned an awful lot about bolt tension! Less is very much more with Tannoys.

 

[awkwardbydesign]

Thanks Tony. I've bookmarked it now so I don't have to ask you again. The HF on my MG12s is just wrong, so a bit of tweaking needed.

 

[Tony L]

Thanks Tony. I've bookmarked it now so I don't have to ask you again. The HF on my MG12s is just wrong, so a bit of tweaking needed.

Just be really careful and go slowly. It is a fiddly job and if you make a real mistake potentially very expensive as the compression drivers are very hard to come by.

Again I can’t emphasise the bolt-tightness thing enough. Tannoys absolutely hate being cranked hard onto a baffle (this is a reason so many wrongly accuse vintage models of being harsh) and the four bolts holding the compression drivers on need nudging into position so gently you will never need to use a screwdriver. Tannoy used a drop of paint to hold them in place which is a really good clue as to just how light the required tension is here. I arrived at some of this knowledge by experimenting myself, certainly when it comes to exactly what bolt tension gives what result, though a lot was direct from Roger at Lockwood before he retired. I spoke to him a few times on the phone.

I've got good mechanical aptitude. Always have had. I can take pretty much anything apart and rebuild it without leaving a trace, and even so these things scare me as the slightest slip and you run the risk of damage to the fragile alloy driver and its very thin internal wires. I didn’t damage any of mine, but it is not a fun task.

 

[VintageTannoy]

I'm not familiar with your measurement software so wouldn't know how to configure the settings so that the comb-filtering is easier to see. I use RoomEQWizard with a 50dB scale spanning 40dB-90dB and 1/48 octave graph smoothing.

Regardless of what equipment you use to measure, to assess pair matching it's vital to keep all test variables constant. I'd strongly recommend keeping the mic in a fixed location and bringing each driver over to it, one at a time, making sure the driver is placed at exactly the same location and angle as the other driver was. Measuring at 1 metre distance or from your listening seat is fine for this, if you get too close then you risk measuring artefacts from the pepperpot that are not audible at normal listening distances.

To be honest, unless you're OCD about this kind of stuff I wouldn't worry about it, - some ears are more sensitive to the "dual-concentric sound" than others. If both drivers are well-matched and the treble sounds open and clear and you don't notice a 'choppy' quality in the decay of high frequency harmonics then you can relax and stop looking for problems!

I find myself in a fortunate position to be able to pick and choose from these various drivers, I would like to keep a pair that is closely matched or I should say pick the pair that is the closest matched of the bunch. To that end, I was thinking of investing in speaker measurement tool like this: https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1052/omnimic-v2-precision-measurement-system. I did find that my Golds sounded off center - louder, more energy on the left than right so I would like to get some measurements on them.

Of the all the pairs I have, I did take the the Silvers and the Silver crossovers to a local speakers expert/tech (well familiar with vintage Tannoys and JBL's - the only option really in Southern California) for an inspection/assessment. He was able to do sweep tests, physically inspected the cone and opened up and measured the crossovers - this was just done in Nov'22. Surprisingly for these almost 70 year old silvers - everything is in spec on the crossovers. The drivers are in a very good shape as well and passed his sweep tests without any issues. Nothing needed adjustment or repair on these drivers. He did point out one driver had more edge glue than the other - he didn't think it was a re-cone, plus the socks are still on the drivers - just done differently from the factory. The silvers are off quite a bit in the serial numbers: 021587 & 023284. Based on the DCR readings being slightly off between the two drivers as well he did mention that they should sound identical expect for one driver may seem a little louder than the other which can be adjusted by the L/R balance on the amp.

Maybe I should just take all my other drivers to him for testing - its about $30 each. He also has one (of the only two in the US) re-magnetizing machines for these drivers. However he doesn't suggest re-magnetizing for Silvers or Reds. He was pleasantly surprised to see the Silvers as he doesn't see as many Tannoys in his shop as he sees the JBLs and Altecs.

 

[VintageTannoy]

I'd sell both Silvers and Reds despite their obvious desirability as you said they sounded light and soft in the bass which is in contrast to the expected full and warm bottom end and may point to surrounds stiffening up.

The Reds are anemic on the bass in the Daltons. However when I put them in the Lancasters the bass was much better. I'm assuming it has a lot to do with the sealed Daltons. And I only got to listen to the Silvers in the Lancasters. When I had the Lancasters, I swapped all the 4 monitor series drivers into the Lacasters and played and recorded a small playlist on a hi-res recorder. I have 4 hi-res files for each song recorded on each Monitor series. I haven't gotten around to listening and analyzing the differences yet. Maybe I can share the files here and some of you longtime Tannoyistas can confirm the sonic signature of these drivers.

 

[VintageTannoy]

And thank you all for your responses, I'm learning a lot.

 

[calorgas]

The Reds are anemic on the bass in the Daltons. However when I put them in the Lancasters the bass was much better.

In the past I had some 12" reds in corner Chatsworth cabinets for a short while and found those to be very bass light too. Those cabinets looked very nice but were very lightweight and did the drivers no favours at all in my opinion, so don't necessarily take it as written that all Tannoy corner cabs are better than their rectangular equivalents . I happened to have some Devon cabinets at the time and tried the reds in those using Gold crossovers (Frankenstein's monster) and they sounded much better like that! However I sold the reds and kept the golds, which I preferred.

 

[Tony L]

Tannoys before the Monitor Golds are very much valve-era and sound very wrong with highly damped solid state amps IMO. They just weren’t designed or voiced for things that wouldn’t exist for a decade or two in the future. The Gold is somewhere in a no-mans land between the two to my mind, I really don’t like the way they sound with say Naim, but they sound wonderful with a rather under-damped Quad 303 or valves.

As with all vintage audio understanding context and synergy is essential. There is no alternative but to view things in a complete system context and with Tannoys the valve to solid state divide couldn’t be clearer to my mind. I love Reds, but I’d be driving them with a Leak valve amp of their era. If I wanted to run SRMs or DMTs I’d be looking at things like a Quad 909 or even US high-end solid state. They are entirely different eras.

 

[ToTo Man]

I find myself in a fortunate position to be able to pick and choose from these various drivers, I would like to keep a pair that is closely matched or I should say pick the pair that is the closest matched of the bunch. To that end, I was thinking of investing in speaker measurement tool like this: https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1052/omnimic-v2-precision-measurement-system. I did find that my Golds sounded off center - louder, more energy on the left than right so I would like to get some measurements on them.

Of the all the pairs I have, I did take the the Silvers and the Silver crossovers to a local speakers expert/tech (well familiar with vintage Tannoys and JBL's - the only option really in Southern California) for an inspection/assessment. He was able to do sweep tests, physically inspected the cone and opened up and measured the crossovers - this was just done in Nov'22. Surprisingly for these almost 70 year old silvers - everything is in spec on the crossovers. The drivers are in a very good shape as well and passed his sweep tests without any issues. Nothing needed adjustment or repair on these drivers. He did point out one driver had more edge glue than the other - he didn't think it was a re-cone, plus the socks are still on the drivers - just done differently from the factory. The silvers are off quite a bit in the serial numbers: 021587 & 023284. Based on the DCR readings being slightly off between the two drivers as well he did mention that they should sound identical expect for one driver may seem a little louder than the other which can be adjusted by the L/R balance on the amp.

Maybe I should just take all my other drivers to him for testing - its about $30 each. He also has one (of the only two in the US) re-magnetizing machines for these drivers. However he doesn't suggest re-magnetizing for Silvers or Reds. He was pleasantly surprised to see the Silvers as he doesn't see as many Tannoys in his shop as he sees the JBLs and Altecs.

If you trust someone else to test and verify the operational condition of the drivers and crossovers then take the drivers to the local tech as the price he's charging you is very reasonable, especially if he's able to test the condition of the crossover components etc! Due to my disability there's a lot of tech stuff I am physically unable to do, which is frustrating because I have a very inquisitive mind and am a control freak so I'd love to do it all myself if I could! Measuring frequency response and harmonic distortion is something I'm able to do and I like to think I've become pretty skilled at it over the years. It's not particularly difficult, you just have to be very exacting in your approach and know how to interpret the results! It's also good knowledge to have IMO as it can assist you in diagnosing any faults/spec drifts that might develop in the speakers in the future.

EDIT - I use RoomEQWizard and a UMIK-1 mic, which is about the most affordable solution you can get but perhaps not the most powerful or intuitive to use, but it's what I cut my teeth on! I think the Dayton software is more powerful, at least in the sense that it lets you measure impedance curves etc, but I don't have any hands-on experience with it.

 

[Tony L]

The problem with measuring Tannoys for real pair matching etc is the mic positioning.

This was a total mistake. Don’t do this!

I was trying to dial in on the compression driver alignment with as little room effect as possible. Absolutely useless as a mm or two error in mic position in any direction has way more impact than the thing you are trying to measure. Even with the stand locked-out it just isn’t possible to get the required precision. I ended up giving up and just going by ear using white/pink noise as I could easily hear changes the mic and REW wasn’t reliably picking up. I tried at various measuring distances but never got to the point where I trusted what was onscreen. This is why the real pros have anechoic chambers and measuring jigs! I guess the real problem here was using totally the wrong mic for what I was trying to do. I needed a highly directional one rather than the UMIK-1 which is an omni room-measurement mic. I do have a few bog standard instrument/vocal mics, Shure, AKG etc knocking around, maybe over that precise (500Hz-10kHz or so) range they may actually be more use!

 

[Darmok]

Anechoic chambers.

I had a single Tannoy 12" MG enclosed in a York rectangle cab, when I was living in, Souf Landon.

I held a garden party for my neighbours upstairs kids.

I place the York cab on top of the concrete coal bunker in the back garden and drove it with one of my Leak TL50+s, Thorens TD150 c/w Ortofon 212 Tone arm and fitted with a Shure M75ED cartridge.

WOW, what a difference, the way the Tannoy performed out in free space.

All the party goers stared at it with awe as it motored away loudly and effortlessly.

The youngsters said, that is old stuff, my reply was, "Oldy but Goody."

They could not help themselves but danced non stop energetically, twas a great sight to see, and was a great Souf Landon sunny afternoon.

Take your big Tannoys out into your back gardens if you have one, and give your Tannoys a good happy hard workout exercise.

Cheer up all your gloomy / grumpy neighbours or neighbourhood whilst at it.

 

[cooky1257]

IME measurement should only take you so far, the errors that will occur when aiming for total precision from even minor mic positional changes just underlines to me that we need to accept the limitations we face in trying to address real matching when we have 2 probably mismatched ears either side of our heads that aren't clamped to a mic stand... Take the gramophone FR plot of the Berkeley upthread, which of those hf peaks shouldn't be there and how are you going to adjust or eliminate them?
Truth be told you are flying by the seat of your pants and as Richard has shown having spent more time than most of use drilling down into speaker measurement to find a closely matched pair in terms of sensitivity and frequency response it isn't the full picture, a good match doesn't mean a good sound, you have to trust your ears in particular when adjusting the hf diaphragm.
TannoyDCs do not have a flat hf response, it's pretty average really but it is a compression driver that follows a loose house curve consistent across the all the Pepperpots. I'd argue if your DCs measure flat there's something wrong with them- that 10-15 kHz hump should be there, narrow troughs in the response are inaudible. When servicing/ refurbing I aim for a general FR consistency across pairs( hence the vase response display) using the best sounding, best measuring driver as the baseline then try to get the second driver response closer. I'll then fine tune both the hf Dias for a correct- you know it when you hear it- hf character and ideally a better FR match- though accepting the irregularities of the measuring process, it's only ever a rough guide to get you in the zone.
As both Tony and Cesare posted upthread the fine tuning process often has the rather frustrating habit of undoing much of the progress you make in pursuing the consistency across the pair, this is why I call it the rabbit hole as it can take two minutes or a full day
As Richard states preliminary to all the above is the usual swapping of drivers/ crossovers and checking that xover components are in spec where necessary.

 

[VintageTannoy]

Thank you all for your inputs. I see what you mean, it could be a rabbit hole with measurements. I think I will take my drivers to the speaker tech and have them inspected. As long as things look within spec, I will be okay. I have listened to all the driver and there is nothing particularly wrong with the sound. Bass is warmer and lower on the Reds and Silvers but I tried them all in the same Lancaster cabinets and may be it needs some port tuning for bass for the specific driver but I think I'm good for now.

 

[cooky1257]

If it's Upland loudspeakers get Ken(Edgewound)to run DATS on them which will check their T&S parameters( resonance, dynamic compliance, impedance plots etc).