Advice on Tannoy 12" Silver, Red, Gold, HPD

[VintageTannoy]

Hi All, I'm new to Tannoys and this site. I currently possess 12" Tannoy Silvers, Reds, Golds and HPDs. There's a long story about how I acquired these and I can relate that if anybody is interested. But what I need now is help/advice deciding a one-size-fits-all cabinet for the Tannoy 12" drivers. I know it's a difficult ask since the cabinet/ports will need to be adjusted. But if I were to keep a couple of drivers that I can easily switch out in a cabinet, which cabinet would be best for this purpose? I'm planning to keep the HPD, Gold and Red drivers. Which cabinet would work best for all of these drivers. My intent is to live with a driver for a few months or years and switch them when I want to change it up a bit.

I have one of two options below with cabinets:
1. Keep one of the existing cabinets (if it's a good fit for all - However I believe I do not have a big enough cabinet in my possession that would work well for all - please see the list of my current cabinets below)
2. Build my own - not by myself but commission a build with a local woodworker.

My current cabinets:
Silvers: Loose pair - do not have a cabinet
Reds: I have reds in Daltons cabinet (23.75x22x15)
Gold: I have two sets of Golds 1. Stuarts (24x25x17) and 2. Orbitus (30x17x17)
HPD: Cheviots (33.5x17.75x10)

Which one of the cabinets above would be the best for all drivers?

I would love to extract the full potential of these drivers which I believe would required a bigger cabinet than the options I have. Therefore, I'm open to building my own. I don't have any experience with woodworking. I'm in Los Angeles and have been able to look up local woodworkers who could build a cabinet for me. For the DIY option I'm considering the Tannoy Rectangular Lancaster or the Tannoy Amesbury plans.

Between all the cabinets options I have mentioned above, which one would you recommend and why? If there is another cabinet I should consider for DIY please let me know. Thank you.

p.s. How do I attach pictures on the thread? I'm only presented with a link option.

 

[cooky1257]

Reds and Golds are essentially the same driver (I'm assuming your Gold isn't a rubber surround 12R )and work well in the Lancaster with little to be gained by going for a larger box, a HPD in a Lancaster sized box would need to either block the port entirely to create a Mansfield or adjust the port dimension to account for the difference in driver T&S parameters. The Red and Gold will fit in the same driver cut out but the HPD basket is slightly different size if I recall correctly.
The HPD however will really give its best in a 120L enclosure tuned to 30-32 hz.

 

[VintageTannoy]

Thank you @cooky1257 . Appreciate the response. I did get to audition Lancaster cabinets for some time and liked the sound. They were originally fitted with Reds. In the brief time I had them I was able to swap the Reds with Golds. I just wasn't sure if there is a better cabinet for these 12" than the Lancaster for DIY. Thank you for the confirmation.

 

[cooky1257]

Thank you @cooky1257 . Appreciate the response. I did get to audition Lancaster cabinets for some time and liked the sound. They were originally fitted with Reds. In the brief time I had them I was able to swap the Reds with Golds. I just wasn't sure if there is a better cabinet for these 12" than the Lancaster for DIY. Thank you for the confirmation.

There is a better cabinet, it's a better built Lancaster sized one ie you don't need to copy the proportions just the internal volume.
You could, if you wanted to wring the very last drop of bass extension out of the Red/Gold, build a 150L box and tune below resonance around 30 hz but there are risks and consequences using low Xmax, low power handling and most importantly, vintage tannoy drivers, in this way. Put simply you could easily damage them by over excursion/ over driving.

 

[Tony L]

When it comes to Tannoy’s original Silver to Gold-era cab designs it is worth noting the corner models all sound better than their rectangular equivalents. My guess is it is down to very different internal standing wave behaviour and much reduced reflection from the rear panel into the back of the cone.

Obviously you don’t need to use corner cabs in corners, you can put them wherever you want in the room. If I was ever commissioning a cab build I’m pretty sure I’d go for a corner design.

 

[cooky1257]

Note if the OP decides to go for the Corner Lancaster there is a mistake on the published plans, whoever re-drew the plans failed to take into account the baffle thickness- the port should be 10"x3" x 4.75"deep (not 4" deep).

 

[VintageTannoy]

I'm planning to build a rectangular cabinet much like the Lancasters. Does anyone have a link or a picture for proper Lancasters plan?

Also, if you had an option to only keep two of the four drivers below for the Lancaster build, which two would you keep and why?

 

[Tony L]

If I had that lot and wasn’t concerned about making money on selling I’d start with the Silvers and I’d stick them in a corner cab. That is potentially as good as it gets.

There are many who think the 12” Silver is the best Tannoy ever made. IIRC the reason is it has the lightest cone and the most simple crossover that effectively runs the cone full-range and is very simple when it comes to the compression driver. I would love to spend time with a pair. They are legendary drivers.

If you are factoring value and looking to resell then each later generation is worth roughly half to three quarters of the one that preceded it, e.g. Silvers are worth 2x Reds, Reds 2x Golds, Golds 1.5x HPDs. I’d be all over the Silvers and Reds there, though the Golds and HPDs are still great speakers (I have 15” Golds, though would like to move to Reds one day if the opportunity presents as they would be period correct for my cabs).

PS Your amp taste will be a big factor in the decision too. I’d very much view Silvers and Reds as valve-era, HPDs as solid state, and the Golds as the pivot-point between the two.

 

[Tumeni Notes]

Oh, my. Is there such a thing as Pavlov's Audiophile, salivating at the sight of the Dual Concentric?

 

[VintageTannoy]

Thanks for the input Tony. My first pair of Tannoys was the Golds in Orbitus omni directional cabinets I bought locally here in Southern California from a gentleman who is a Tannoy enthusiast and collector. This was just a few months ago. I fell in love with the Golds and the Orbitus cabinets and then the gentleman enticed me with the other "better" drivers and cabinets. Rather than doing it piece meal, I decided to acquire all the other drivers/cabinets he has and try them out for some time before I settle down on a pair or two. I plan to sell the rest. He also let be borrow his Lancasters with Reds for a short period of time to test. Those Lancasters with Red 12s were the best speakers I ever heard. With his permission, I was able to use the Lancasters as a mule to swap the drivers with Silvers, Golds and HPDs to hear the sonic differences between the drivers. I felt the bass to be a little soft or lacking with the Reds and Silvers. Golds and HPDs had ample bass. I wanted to buy the Lancasters however those were not up for grabs.. those were his keepers . In my personal, subjective opinion.. the Reds sound a lot like Silvers but Silvers are very different sounding than the Reds if that makes sense. I'm most likely going to pick one from the Silver/Red group and another one from the Gold/HPD group. I'm driving these with a fully redesigned Heathkit EL84 7w tube amp. I find it has enough power for these drivers. I also tried the Ardens for a short time, those were just amazing in terms of soundstage, just wall of sound but I felt they were too bass heavy. I do have an opportunity coming up potentially to look at a pair of 1960's Rectangular GRF with Gold 15s, looking forward to that. May be if I can get the GRFs, I will call it quits with the 12s and be done with it. Will keep the Silvers though to build the corners as you suggested, just not sure when I will get to it.. not anytime soon, not for a couple of years.

 

[ToTo Man]

Also, if you had an option to only keep two of the four drivers below for the Lancaster build, which two would you keep and why?

My main priority would be identifying and keeping the two drivers that are most the closely matched in terms of sensitivity and frequency response and, if possible, have the smoothest HF response with the least amount of audible comb-filtering. I'd then choose a cabinet design that was optimised for said drivers. But that's just me.

 

[cooky1257]

Looks like your Golds are 12Rs, you can load these and the HPDs into 120L enclosures(Balmoral) for stunningly good performance that leaves the Lancasters in the dust tbh.

 

[Tony L]

My main priority would be identifying and keeping the two drivers that are most the closely matched in terms of frequency response and have the smoothest HF response with the least amount of audible comb-filtering. I'd then choose a cabinet design that was optimised for said drivers. But that's just me.

That is actually a very wise approach. I’m on my third pair of Golds trying to get a perfectly matched pair (the current pair are close, not perfect). I’d actually pay a ridiculous price for a recently measured NOS-grade pair, certainly 2-4x the going used rate. It is one of the reasons I’ve been too scared to buy Reds so far, even though I’d drop the £6-8k a really clean non-tampered pair would command, but even then there is no guarantee of getting the 1db or so pair-matching I’d want.

PS Certainly bare in mind that once you know what you are doing you can improve most pairs by very carefully tweaking the compression driver alignment. My long Tannoy thread gives a little detail here, though it is hard to put into words and very much a ‘feel’ thing.

 

[ToTo Man]

That is actually a very wise approach. I’m on my third pair of Golds trying to get a perfectly matched pair (the current pair are close, not perfect). I’d actually pay a ridiculous price for a recently measured NOS-grade pair, certainly 2-4x the going used rate. It is one of the reasons I’ve been too scared to buy Reds so far, even though I’d drop the £6-8k a really clean non-tampered pair would command, but even then there is no guarantee of getting the 1db or so pair-matching I’d want.

PS Certainly bare in mind that once you know what you are doing you can improve most pairs by very carefully tweaking the compression driver alignment. My long Tannoy thread gives a little detail here, though it is hard to put into words and very much a ‘feel’ thing.

- I was spoiled by the perfect pair-matching of the first pair of MG15s I acquired, these (in mint Lancaster enclosures) are perfectly matched in terms of both sensitivity and frequency response across the spectrum but do exhibit comb-filtering at the highest frequencies.
- My spare pair of MG15s are almost as good in terms of sensitivity pair-matching but have stronger output at high frequencies with less comb-filtering and sound a little clearer and more precise.
- My MG12(HE)'s pair-matching is slightly worse but is still good.
- My MG12(R)'s have perfectly-matched and super-smooth HF responses but show slightly more of a sensitivity difference in the woofer range than my MG12(HE).
- The MGs/HPDs I bought that had poorer pair-matching than this were returned for a refund, including a pair from a well-known seller of vintage Tannoys that had just been fitted with NOS HPD HF diaphragms that measured like the Himalayas! (EDIT - To avoid any confusion the seller I'm referring to is NOT @cooky1257 of this parish!).

Note: I haven't attempted to re-align the HF units on any of them so there may be potential improvements to be had.

If I ever decide to sell a pair of my MG15s I'll give you first refusal.

 

[VintageTannoy]

@ToTo Man That makes sense. I had taken the HF, LF resistance readings.. would that help is assessing how closely they are matched? And what do you mean by comb-filtering and how do I measure that?

I have the following readings for the Reds and Golds:

Red# 043302
HF: 11.9
LF: 5.6
Red# 044146
HF: 11.8
LF: 5.7

Gold# 080280
HF: 10.2
LF: 5.0
Gold# 082612
HF: 9.8
LF: 5.5

 

[ToTo Man]

@ToTo Man That makes sense. I had taken the HF, LF resistance readings.. would that help is assessing how closely they are matched? And what do you mean by comb-filtering and how do I measure that?

I have the following readings for the Reds and Golds:

Red# 043302
HF: 11.9
LF: 5.6
Red# 044146
HF: 11.8
LF: 5.7

Gold# 080280
HF: 10.2
LF: 5.0
Gold# 082612
HF: 9.8
LF: 5.5

In my experience DCR readings tell little about how well matched drivers are in the acoustic domain. The best way is to measure their frequency responses with a microphone using a sine sweep or periodic pink noise. However you can also effectively assess how well matched they are by ear, - sit each driver side by side and pan a mono music track from left to right and see if you can hear a difference in volume and tonality between the two drivers. Then repeat the tests with the crossovers swapped, and also the amplifier channels swapped (if using a valve amp), to confirm that the difference is actually the drivers themselves and not something else further upstream.

Comb-filtering is narrow-band peaks and dips in the response at higher frequencies and can be hard to identify unless you know what to listen out for.

 

[Tony L]

I have the following readings for the Reds and Golds:

Really you can tell little without actually acoustically measuring them with a mic and sweep in a very precise location. Don’t measure too close as it is so hard to get a clean reading of the compression driver alignment.

The thing with Tannoys is they were very much a hand-made product so you’ll find differences all over before we even get to surrounds ageing differently depending where they were in a room (e.g. one by a sunny window or radiator, the other not). There are usually a different number of spacers under the compression driver, and I suspect (though have no hard evidence for this) that the magnet strength can vary or age.

Vintage Tannoys are staggeringly good speakers, my favourite of everything I’ve ever heard as an all-rounder, just so coherent and ‘right’, but they are certainly full of quirks. The newer Scottish models address a lot of the sample variance (certainly from the ceramic magnet era onwards, HPDs can be very variable), but I’ve never felt they’ve had that precise ‘thing’ I love so much about proper London AlNiCo & Pepper Pot Tannoys. FWIW I’m the same when it comes to crossovers, the expensive third party stuff just loses the magic for me. My ideal is an absolutely perfect original pair of 15” Reds or Golds as I love my vintage Lockwood cabs and they are the right drivers for them. I’ve got to the stage I’m at ease with the imperfections even though I am naturally weapons-grade obsessive about small details.

PS Bizarrely my pair actually seem to be getting more balanced after years of regular use. I don’t find myself slightly riding one channel anymore, though I have a feeling I may have been wrongly blaming an aspect of this on an issue with my preamp that eventually failed properly a few months ago (just a resistor out of spec, now fixed). I don’t really want to measure again as I’m at peace with them now! They sound within range of normal room acoustics and less than perfect 59 year old ears.

 

[VintageTannoy]

Thank you all for your inputs and insights. This is really helpful.

I have a Dayton audio mic which I was able to attach to my phone and run some frequency sweeps.. some in cabinets, some with just the driver outside the cabinets.

Would this suffice or do I need something more precise? I measured about 2 inches away from the cabinets and drivers. Is that too close?

Here's one of the sweeps of either Silver or Red driver (I don't recall) outside the cabinet. Do I measure both the drivers and compare the graphs for close match as well as for the comb-filtering?

And speaking of quirks with the vintage Tannoys, my pair of Reds come from a mint pair of Daltons. These speakers are quite special as in they severely lack in bass however the vocals and highs on these are to die for. Now the quirk is, even though these were sold as a pair to the original owner (I'm the 3rd owner). One driver has an Orange dust cap and the other has a Black dust cap. The original owner never opened the cabinets and didn't even know they were different. To my ears they sound the same. Does anyone know if there are any audible differences between these early Reds and later Reds?

Daltons:

Reds from Daltons:

 

[cooky1257]

To an extent a reality check is in order regarding 'pair matched' Tannoys.
The nature of the beasts makes it possible to get reasonably close matches to the point where room influences will swamp any remaining differences but bear in mind the following: They use crossovers with +/-10% tolerance components, the auto-former and LF inductor values likewise, the normal manufacturing tolerances from 60 years ago mean T&S parameters with at least 10% variation- often considerably more once the effects of ageing is taken into consideration, then there's the hand assembled nature that will introduce its own set of variables, also consider the lack of consistency even in the usually pretty poorly made enclosures themselves and finally regarding Silvers and Reds, they were sold singly for mono reproduction.
Frankly I'm amazed they turn out as 'closely' matched as they often do and is a testament to the fundamental rightness of the dual concentric concept.
Troughs and peaks in the HF range are likely a symptom of an over tight misaligned hf diaphragm, driver edge diffraction/delays/reflections will also introduce cancellations and front cavity resonances will also affect the hf horn mouth termination, some of the latter are somewhat inescapable design compromises of a vintage tannoy dual.
I'd sell both Silvers and Reds despite their obvious desirability as you said they sounded light and soft in the bass which is in contrast to the expected full and warm bottom end and may point to surrounds stiffening up.
I've had a few 'Friday afternoon' HPDs through my hands where the appearance of the horn phase plug and throat left a lot to be desired but must say despite some poor machining they measured and sounded fine.

 

[Vinny]

Just one nit-picky comment re component tolerances.

Components are usually manufactured aiming for centre of spec' (this assumes a normal distribution of component parameters), and at the end of the manufacturing process, are measured and sorted into tolerance bands. There is no reason to believe that process capability for different components has changed massively, unless someone has some numbers to show otherwise.

Today, assuming component X is sold in tolerance bands of +/- 1%, 5% and 10%, very few, if any, components sold as +/- 10% would be better than +/- 5% - values would be somewhere in two clusters - +5 to +10% and -5 to -10%. Similarly +/- 5% components would not include any better than +/- 1%.
If they were sold only as a +/- 10% product, that would include components with zero to +/- 10% variation from nominal.