Advice on Harbeth speakers placement
- Thread starter yunie_
- Start date
My first guess would be a weak source signal.
Maybe try a better source, a CD player or turntable.
Harbeth's 3-way speakers are notorious for a slow performance of bas notes, even way out in room away from rear wall those loudspeakers may boom, which they shouldn't price into consideration. Paradox they have a great midrange.
The Hegel amp is not the tightest either, so maybe expensive setup not really performing proportional with the $$$.
Room seem not really a help.
Big Tabs
looking backwards, going forwards
Speaker position and that massive glass wall with no curtains are the first things that catch my eye. The coffee table could be at the side rather than blocking the sound.
I would take all the furniture out and start again. Split the room 50/50 but 90° to how it is now.
The whole back wall is now available. Use it.
Centre the sofa, bring it closer to the back wall and stick the dining table/chairs behind the sofa, towards the window.
Then mess around for months adjusting the equilateral or elongated version triangles. Don’t be scared to get closer than you think, much closer. Toe-in or not. experiment. Get some more rug-action…
and shift the TV
I would take all the furniture out and start again. Split the room 50/50 but 90° to how it is now.
The whole back wall is now available. Use it.
Centre the sofa, bring it closer to the back wall and stick the dining table/chairs behind the sofa, towards the window.
Then mess around for months adjusting the equilateral or elongated version triangles. Don’t be scared to get closer than you think, much closer. Toe-in or not. experiment. Get some more rug-action…
and shift the TV
As others have suggested, pulling the speakers forward 1-2 feet should help. I don't have Harbeths but have similar and similarly sized Spendors and found that stands matter a lot. After trying all kinds of stands I ended up placing them on appropriately sized subwoofers which gave me more and better bass, better overall sound, and I like the look. My speakers are separated from the subwoofers by Isoacoustics which you already have! Otherwise your room looks very pleasant and functional. I wouldn't change a thing.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
The picture makes the environment for each speaker look very different. That will play havoc with getting a stable image and balanced soundstage. I’d have a good look at moving things round so that you can get them into a more even space if at all possible. Some distance off the walls and toe in would help, then you can experiment with seating. Avoid walls or glass too close behind the seat.
Andy1912
pfm Member
I have SHL 5+ speakers in my main system and some smaller P3ESRs in a second system. They've been positioned in less than optimal places many times, including in front of patio windows, almost always on wooden floors and so on.
I agree with everyone that suggests your speakers could be better positioned. If you've not looked up yet, find some instructions about how to set up speakers, toe in, equilateral triangle or thereabouts and so on.
I have often had to compromise the general position of the speakers, but when alone moved a chair into the best position for serious listening.
I'd be surprised if you couldn't make those speakers sound great regardless of some room challenges.
I agree with everyone that suggests your speakers could be better positioned. If you've not looked up yet, find some instructions about how to set up speakers, toe in, equilateral triangle or thereabouts and so on.
I have often had to compromise the general position of the speakers, but when alone moved a chair into the best position for serious listening.
I'd be surprised if you couldn't make those speakers sound great regardless of some room challenges.
wow&flutter
pfm Member
Just a thought, would turning the system through 90 degrees help? So have the speakers on the left glass wall firing right and the sofa facing the windows. They may still benefit from some treatment behind them as well.
I can’t comment on the Harbeth speakers as I’ve never heard them but I do agree with others though that the glass wall may make it difficult to get it right.
I can’t comment on the Harbeth speakers as I’ve never heard them but I do agree with others though that the glass wall may make it difficult to get it right.
Can you post some in-room frequency response measurements? That would help diagnose the problem.
Hi yunie - observations from my own experience – far be it for me to offer advice!
That looks to me like a great living space and I’d have thought it not too difficult to achieve a satisfyingly good sound there from your Harbeths, whatever the compromises which we all have to adapt to and live with however theoretically good our kit is.
The first thing that strikes me, as others have said, is that the sofa looks to be too far away from the speakers. Harbeth in their user guide suggest a distance away of 1.5 times the space between the speakers, drawn from the dead centre between them (referenced per schneiderhan’s post 20 – I haven’t watched the video).
Harbeth also stress that speaker height is crucial and should be such that the tweeter (47.5cm up measured from the bottom of the cabinet of the SHL5 plus/XD) is at, or close to, ear level in the sitting position. I’ve no idea how high your sofa seat is, or, of the height of your stands, but from your photo I wonder whether your stands may be too tall? May well just be the limitations of the photo view, but my SHL5 plus are on 43cm stands for a 90cm seated ear height, and my stand height in proportion to speaker size looks somewhat less than yours appears to be. As I say though, that may just be down to the photo, and you may have chosen your stand height for your sofa seat height.
If it were me, I’d stay with your basic layout of TV on that wall, speakers either side, and so the option of watching TV with sound through the speakers. It’s what I have (albeit TV on a stand), and like my set-up, your speakers appear to be forward of the cabinet below the TV, so I wouldn’t have thought there’d be much problem there.
I experimented with toe in and didn’t like too much, settling in the end for five* degrees (or as near as).
Again as others have commented, and you will already know this, any further space between the walls and the speakers can only help, and again recommended dimensions are in the Harbeth user guide though many find they can manage (or have to manage) with a little less, particularly in near field use where listening volumes will be lower. Also as already suggested, the area of the window in the path of LH speaker reflections would likely benefit from a heavy curtain/drape particularly for higher volumes – I guess that may compromise your view, but, choices and trade-offs. It can be always be drawn back when you're not listening. I see you already have a large rug in front of the sofa.
Lastly, at 150 watts (that right?) into 8 ohms, the Hegel 190 ought to be plenty sufficient.
Despite the limitations of my listening space I consider I get a great sound from my SHL5 plus and wouldn't be without them.
I had been thinking that one day I might see if digital room correction could improve things further, so the comments by tuga and irb are a bit deflating! They suggest to me though that claims made for room correction like 'game changer' may be overstated and that within the limitations of my listening space I've already achieved as near as good as I'm going to get, which is actually a great sound giving me much enjoyment.
I hope you manage to crack it too. It would be interesting in the course of time to read how you get on.
All the best.
*Edit after checking.
That looks to me like a great living space and I’d have thought it not too difficult to achieve a satisfyingly good sound there from your Harbeths, whatever the compromises which we all have to adapt to and live with however theoretically good our kit is.
The first thing that strikes me, as others have said, is that the sofa looks to be too far away from the speakers. Harbeth in their user guide suggest a distance away of 1.5 times the space between the speakers, drawn from the dead centre between them (referenced per schneiderhan’s post 20 – I haven’t watched the video).
Harbeth also stress that speaker height is crucial and should be such that the tweeter (47.5cm up measured from the bottom of the cabinet of the SHL5 plus/XD) is at, or close to, ear level in the sitting position. I’ve no idea how high your sofa seat is, or, of the height of your stands, but from your photo I wonder whether your stands may be too tall? May well just be the limitations of the photo view, but my SHL5 plus are on 43cm stands for a 90cm seated ear height, and my stand height in proportion to speaker size looks somewhat less than yours appears to be. As I say though, that may just be down to the photo, and you may have chosen your stand height for your sofa seat height.
If it were me, I’d stay with your basic layout of TV on that wall, speakers either side, and so the option of watching TV with sound through the speakers. It’s what I have (albeit TV on a stand), and like my set-up, your speakers appear to be forward of the cabinet below the TV, so I wouldn’t have thought there’d be much problem there.
I experimented with toe in and didn’t like too much, settling in the end for five* degrees (or as near as).
Again as others have commented, and you will already know this, any further space between the walls and the speakers can only help, and again recommended dimensions are in the Harbeth user guide though many find they can manage (or have to manage) with a little less, particularly in near field use where listening volumes will be lower. Also as already suggested, the area of the window in the path of LH speaker reflections would likely benefit from a heavy curtain/drape particularly for higher volumes – I guess that may compromise your view, but, choices and trade-offs. It can be always be drawn back when you're not listening. I see you already have a large rug in front of the sofa.
Lastly, at 150 watts (that right?) into 8 ohms, the Hegel 190 ought to be plenty sufficient.
Despite the limitations of my listening space I consider I get a great sound from my SHL5 plus and wouldn't be without them.
I had been thinking that one day I might see if digital room correction could improve things further, so the comments by tuga and irb are a bit deflating! They suggest to me though that claims made for room correction like 'game changer' may be overstated and that within the limitations of my listening space I've already achieved as near as good as I'm going to get, which is actually a great sound giving me much enjoyment.
I hope you manage to crack it too. It would be interesting in the course of time to read how you get on.
All the best.
*Edit after checking.
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Another thought about your situation, and as discussion seems to have petered out I hope I’m not labouring on. Anyway, here goes.
How far apart do you have your speakers?
It’s hard to tell from your photo, but it appears that it could be around 7 feet (2.14 metres)?
If so, could you perhaps be getting the ‘hole in the middle’ effect of sound coming from either side but with a weak central image?
This could easily be tested by trying a listening distance of 2 metres (6 foot 6 inches) from the central point between the speakers with them placed 1.33 metres (4ft 4 inches) apart. This conforms to the 1:1.5 ratio suggested by Harbeth.
I’m not suggesting that those dimensions should be an end point, just that if your speakers are as much as 7 feet apart, then the difference in sound with the experimental position would likely be very noticeable (stronger central image) and might just point to the reason why you are currently dissatisfied with your sound.
Reducing the space between the speakers will also have the effect of moving the LH one away from the windows, so perhaps reducing reflections. Although 4ft 4inches may be considered to be quite a small distance between the speakers, the sound stage will extend beyond the width of the speaker placement.
Should that give something more like the sound you hoped to achieve, it can be the basis for further experimentation.
Of course, if you’ve already done all this, or, I’m way out in my estimation of the distance between your speakers in your photo, then ignore the above!
How far apart do you have your speakers?
It’s hard to tell from your photo, but it appears that it could be around 7 feet (2.14 metres)?
If so, could you perhaps be getting the ‘hole in the middle’ effect of sound coming from either side but with a weak central image?
This could easily be tested by trying a listening distance of 2 metres (6 foot 6 inches) from the central point between the speakers with them placed 1.33 metres (4ft 4 inches) apart. This conforms to the 1:1.5 ratio suggested by Harbeth.
I’m not suggesting that those dimensions should be an end point, just that if your speakers are as much as 7 feet apart, then the difference in sound with the experimental position would likely be very noticeable (stronger central image) and might just point to the reason why you are currently dissatisfied with your sound.
Reducing the space between the speakers will also have the effect of moving the LH one away from the windows, so perhaps reducing reflections. Although 4ft 4inches may be considered to be quite a small distance between the speakers, the sound stage will extend beyond the width of the speaker placement.
Should that give something more like the sound you hoped to achieve, it can be the basis for further experimentation.
Of course, if you’ve already done all this, or, I’m way out in my estimation of the distance between your speakers in your photo, then ignore the above!
Tim Jones
pfm Member
Honestly, some of the advice in this thread is a little up itself. Your amp is fine, your source is fine, the problem is obviously the room. Get some rugs in there, ideally (full) bookshelves, etc. Even the sofa doesn't look that soft...
Most loudspeakers are designed for average rooms which, at least in NW Europe are carpeted, have curtains etc. Almost any speaker will sound sub-par in a large room full of reflective surfaces, huge uncovered windows, etc. Also agree with thinking about zoning, etc.
Most loudspeakers are designed for average rooms which, at least in NW Europe are carpeted, have curtains etc. Almost any speaker will sound sub-par in a large room full of reflective surfaces, huge uncovered windows, etc. Also agree with thinking about zoning, etc.
tuga
Legal Alien
You get the ‘hole in the middle’ effect of sound if the distance between the speakers is larger than to the listening spot.
The 2 channel stereo standard (how studio monitors are setup and music is mixed) is an equilateral triangle:
jason rockley
pfm Member
What speakers did you have before the Harbeths and did they work OK? I had some M30.1 and no matter what I did they sounded awful in my room, Probably the worse bass I have ever heard in my life, absolutely woeful. Every other speaker has been fine in this room as well with minimal set up hassle. Sometimes things just wont work and you have to move on.
You get the ‘hole in the middle’ effect of sound if the distance between the speakers is larger than to the listening spot.
The 2 channel stereo standard (how studio monitors are setup and music is mixed) is an equilateral triangle:
Ah – okay, thanks for enlightening me.
In which case, I wonder how valid is Harbeth’s suggested 1:1.5 ratio for distance between speakers/listener distance from centre point? Also, their suggestion that there is an optimum space between the speakers? Applying the principle you quote, presumably speaker spacing/listener distance will be limited only by room dimensions, and in the case of large rooms, having speakers with sufficient power handling driven by suitably powerful amps? I’m just airing my thoughts, and have no expectation of a response should you prefer to leave things there.
The above said, I would like to ask if you’re prepared to comment further on your post 11 mentioning the limitations of room correction. Accepting that the listening room has the greatest influence on what we hear, I had hoped that amps with room correction e.g. NAD, Yamaha, Lyngdorf, would be worth exploring, but I am tending now to conclude that maybe room correction isn’t the ‘game changer’ it is sometimes claimed to be. I’ve no doubt RC will be beneficial to some extent if used correctly, but how significant an improvement might that give? Only marginal perhaps, through tidying up some of the issues with lower frequencies? Or, perhaps (and maybe this is obvious) the potential for improvement is proportional to the scale of the problem? Given your obvious technical knowledge and insight, do you use or have you experimented with room correction in your own set-up and if so what were the results in terms of how worthwhile you considered it to be? Do you or would you use room correction in your own set-up now? I don’t want to come across as taking the liberty of asking one or more questions too many (apologies if that is the case!), so if you’d prefer not to respond to my ramblings then of course please do just ignore this.
Thanks
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
In what way are you dissatisfied?
I'm not sure this has been established so whilst, yes, the picture does suggest a very hard and live acoustic environment, proper advice can't be given unless you've identified what the problem is at the point of entry (into your ears).
tuga
Legal Alien
1:1.5 will increase the amount of reflected vs. direct sound which in turn will make the speakers less obvious as source and avoid the 'hole in the middle', but it will also affect the frequency response flatness at the listening spot negatively.
It may also help 'integrate' drivers that are too distant from each (e.g. large circular horns)
Speaker to listener distance is afected by several factors: early reflections not just from side walls but also floor (cancellation) and ceiling, directivity characteristics of the speaker, room cancellations in relation to both speaker and listener location and as you've mentioned amplifier power vs. speaker max SPL. I'm sitting slightly father from the speakers because I get a flatter low bass response and because my speakers have narrow directivity above the Schroeder or 'transition' frequency the sum of direct and reflected is not affected (stays flat).
tuga
Legal Alien
I use and would definitely recommend Digital Room Correction (as long as it can be customised by the user since it shouldn't really be used above 4-500Hz unless your speakers are flat on- and off-axis and you want to have control on the end result).
Room correction can only address room-generated peaks in the frequency response (which happen below the Schroeder frequency, as per previous post). In that sense it is really good but it corrects only for a single, relatively small sweet-spot area whilst make the sound potentially worse in other parts of the room.
By reducing the gain of the peaks you are also affecting the ringing, making the room interference less obvious and the bass audibly 'clearer':
To address room-generated dips you need to use acoustic treatment.
tuga
Legal Alien
I would add that many room issues above Schroeder (~3-400Hz) can be addressed with careful use of furniture and soft furnishings (e.g. tall bookcases or shelves on side walls in early reflection zones, a thick rug covering as much of the floor space as possible, sofas and armchairs, etc.).
If you change the area of curtains, carpet and number of seats/sofas in the following simulator you get an idea of how these things affect the response of the speakers – try changing the carpet area to 16m2, the curtain area to 12m2 and the number of sofa seats to 6 while looking at the effects on the response graph:
Hi Tuga – my belated reply! As I explained when I PM’d you a day or so ago, I knew I was not going to be in a position to log on before today, to reply properly and express thanks for your generous and full explanations to my questions. Your very prompt and thorough responses, backed with the graphs and online calculators, were more than I was expecting and very much appreciated.
I found the first two graphs to be useful illustrations, but I will need to delve online for more information to help me understand the waterfall graph. Even then it may go over my head!
I’ve today played with both the online calculators you linked and found them useful. Not a total revelation because I’ve previously used other more rough and ready methods to estimate room reflection points. However, it has been useful entering my placement measurements to observe the results.
Although my speaker placements are asymmetric, with the right side open to the room (like the OP on this thread) I’ve been happy to enter symmetric dimensions to see what the ‘Acoustic’ first reflection calculator said is going on with the left side, and on the floor and ceilings. With the Hunecke, yes, I did as you suggested, observing both the changes, and that the range with the most scope for potential improvement appears to be above 1 kHz.
I already have a fitted carpet plus a 190x130 cm wool rug over it positioned in front of the speakers, plus 7.6 m2 of curtains on two windows, also with wooden blinds, along the wall behind the speakers, though not directly behind them. However, the sofa is leather and there may more be things I could try both with that and at the early reflection points from the other diagrams. Again, I already have some mitigation in place.
I’m not dissatisfied with the sound I get from my Harbeths, quite the opposite, but we’re always in this hobby looking for potential improvements, hence my questions about digital room correction. I note that you do use and recommend DRC for the below Schroeder frequencies, subject to the user having the means to control and customise it. Okay, that’s a fair enough answer for me to be going on with!
Thanks again, and all the best to you. I will continue to read your posts on PFM with interest.
I found the first two graphs to be useful illustrations, but I will need to delve online for more information to help me understand the waterfall graph. Even then it may go over my head!
I’ve today played with both the online calculators you linked and found them useful. Not a total revelation because I’ve previously used other more rough and ready methods to estimate room reflection points. However, it has been useful entering my placement measurements to observe the results.
Although my speaker placements are asymmetric, with the right side open to the room (like the OP on this thread) I’ve been happy to enter symmetric dimensions to see what the ‘Acoustic’ first reflection calculator said is going on with the left side, and on the floor and ceilings. With the Hunecke, yes, I did as you suggested, observing both the changes, and that the range with the most scope for potential improvement appears to be above 1 kHz.
I already have a fitted carpet plus a 190x130 cm wool rug over it positioned in front of the speakers, plus 7.6 m2 of curtains on two windows, also with wooden blinds, along the wall behind the speakers, though not directly behind them. However, the sofa is leather and there may more be things I could try both with that and at the early reflection points from the other diagrams. Again, I already have some mitigation in place.
I’m not dissatisfied with the sound I get from my Harbeths, quite the opposite, but we’re always in this hobby looking for potential improvements, hence my questions about digital room correction. I note that you do use and recommend DRC for the below Schroeder frequencies, subject to the user having the means to control and customise it. Okay, that’s a fair enough answer for me to be going on with!
Thanks again, and all the best to you. I will continue to read your posts on PFM with interest.
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Alun Rains
Jus Juan Cornetto
I have a pair of Harbeth HL5 plus speakers myself. They are supported by a pair of Atacama SLX 400 speaker stands filled about 65% with Atacama Atabytes. The stands have gel pads between the top of the stands and the speakers. The Harbeth’s are approx 3 metres apart and toed in about 30 degrees to the listening position which is approximately 3 metres away.
stands are on spikes via carpet to a concrete screeded floor. Overall I am very pleased in how they sound. I do understand that framed stands are recommended but could not find any at a reasonable price. We also have curtains to windows and other soft furnishings.
I would try changing the position of the Harbeth’s and see if that improves things.
Shielding the left hand speaker from all that glass with a moveable acoustic panel may well help significantly too. Currently the sound is bouncing off the glass and being reflected across the room .
Good luck in resolving it.
stands are on spikes via carpet to a concrete screeded floor. Overall I am very pleased in how they sound. I do understand that framed stands are recommended but could not find any at a reasonable price. We also have curtains to windows and other soft furnishings.
I would try changing the position of the Harbeth’s and see if that improves things.
Shielding the left hand speaker from all that glass with a moveable acoustic panel may well help significantly too. Currently the sound is bouncing off the glass and being reflected across the room .
Good luck in resolving it.