Active SBL's
- Thread starter FC united
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I think the problem with SBLs and many other of Naim's speakers with the detachable passive crossovers is that Naim believe active is the 'right way' to do it and hence the passive crossovers are a compromise. In my experience (Credos, Allaes, SBLs, SL2s) all were better driven actively. In the early days of my Credos I had a NAP140 and upgraded to SNAXO2/4 with another NAP 140. I compared this to the Credos running passively with a friend's 250 and the active system was noticeably better.
However, if one replaces the passive crossovers from Naim with some Avondales then I think the question is not as easy to answer as these crossovers are optimised to get the best out of the speakers in passive mode which I believe the Naim versions were not. You also need to factor in the fact that SBLs are very capable speakers and react well to better amplification. I had mine running active with 135s and they were superb.
If it were me I would add a SNAXO and another 150 as it will be significantly better than where you are now and then look to move upwards with all the amplification later. The Avondale crossovers are great, but aiming for a 282/SNAXO/2x250 level of active amplification in the future will be better in my opinion and the extra 150/SNAXO will more than do the SBLs justice for now. However it all depends on where you want to stop and budget in the future etc. as my opinion os only that... I can't speak for you obviously.
However, if one replaces the passive crossovers from Naim with some Avondales then I think the question is not as easy to answer as these crossovers are optimised to get the best out of the speakers in passive mode which I believe the Naim versions were not. You also need to factor in the fact that SBLs are very capable speakers and react well to better amplification. I had mine running active with 135s and they were superb.
If it were me I would add a SNAXO and another 150 as it will be significantly better than where you are now and then look to move upwards with all the amplification later. The Avondale crossovers are great, but aiming for a 282/SNAXO/2x250 level of active amplification in the future will be better in my opinion and the extra 150/SNAXO will more than do the SBLs justice for now. However it all depends on where you want to stop and budget in the future etc. as my opinion os only that... I can't speak for you obviously.
@ the OP
You could buy the Avondale'd 180 for sale right now in the classifieds. Great upgrade to you 150 , amazing VFM and a good starting point to either an experiment later with a passive Avondale xo (if you could get one) , or look to add a CB or Olive naxo .
It would be an interesting journey and low risk as you could probably sell on stuff for what you paid originally for it .
My preference would be two stereo Avondale amps , naxo & PSU.
Agree with others that this would need a quality front end as well .
Have fun
You could buy the Avondale'd 180 for sale right now in the classifieds. Great upgrade to you 150 , amazing VFM and a good starting point to either an experiment later with a passive Avondale xo (if you could get one) , or look to add a CB or Olive naxo .
It would be an interesting journey and low risk as you could probably sell on stuff for what you paid originally for it .
My preference would be two stereo Avondale amps , naxo & PSU.
Agree with others that this would need a quality front end as well .
Have fun
DirkDiction
Member
I acquired a beautiful pair of Mk2 SBLs in the summer and used them with a 150x with wonderful results compared to my previous speakers. They now have a 250DR driving them and the difference is far greater than ‘night & day’......
For me they are a very rare breed that will perform admirably with lower powered equipment, but will rub their hands with glee with many, many upgrades to sources and amplification. Fortunately my music room has Block walls and a concrete floor which really is a necessity for them to shine
For me they are a very rare breed that will perform admirably with lower powered equipment, but will rub their hands with glee with many, many upgrades to sources and amplification. Fortunately my music room has Block walls and a concrete floor which really is a necessity for them to shine
Jonboi
Because Music Matters
Back in the golden age of HiFi in the 1990's when a really good HiFi was still seen as something to aspire to owning, I bought my first Naim system, CD player, pre, HiCap, power amp and Mk 11 SBL's.
Two decades later the Naim electronics have all gone/sold off, but the SBL's remain - such an excellent and engaging speaker in so many ways, and nowadays seemingly worth so little that there's no real apparent point in selling them. But then a lot of good reasons to buying a pair if they come up for sale.
I heard them demoed both active and passive, and in active mode ( 2 x 250's) v's passive (1 x 250) they really were in another league as a speaker.
I always planned to upgrade them to active, but cost, and a new direction to expand my system to include AV more or less put paid to that aim.
I would always run them active over passive if at all possible. Notwithstanding that going for a better amp and passive may also make an improvement in sound quality, ALL other things being equal, i.e. equal amplification, speaker, room etc, going passive to active will always give you better resolution (less noise and distortion), better dynamics and musical involvement (much better transient response), and an overall sonic improvement such as to wonder if it's the same speaker.
Well it's not, as passive crossovers are always a technical compromise compared to active - ask ATC about the matter.
As a side line, and unbelievable as it may seem, I did some matched level, A/B comparisons between my SBL's running passive and the active speakers in my B&O TV.
For outright resolution and transient response, on the same music the active speakers in the TV had it over the SBL's running passive.
Of course, for everything else, there was no comparison, but the advantages of active operation could nonetheless be heard even on pieces of equipment so different and intended for totally different purposes.
So my vote (and now being the owner of an fully active 3 way speaker system) is to go active over passive if you possibly can re the extra cost and cable complexity as regards the SBL's.
Cheers
Two decades later the Naim electronics have all gone/sold off, but the SBL's remain - such an excellent and engaging speaker in so many ways, and nowadays seemingly worth so little that there's no real apparent point in selling them. But then a lot of good reasons to buying a pair if they come up for sale.
I heard them demoed both active and passive, and in active mode ( 2 x 250's) v's passive (1 x 250) they really were in another league as a speaker.
I always planned to upgrade them to active, but cost, and a new direction to expand my system to include AV more or less put paid to that aim.
I would always run them active over passive if at all possible. Notwithstanding that going for a better amp and passive may also make an improvement in sound quality, ALL other things being equal, i.e. equal amplification, speaker, room etc, going passive to active will always give you better resolution (less noise and distortion), better dynamics and musical involvement (much better transient response), and an overall sonic improvement such as to wonder if it's the same speaker.
Well it's not, as passive crossovers are always a technical compromise compared to active - ask ATC about the matter.
As a side line, and unbelievable as it may seem, I did some matched level, A/B comparisons between my SBL's running passive and the active speakers in my B&O TV.
For outright resolution and transient response, on the same music the active speakers in the TV had it over the SBL's running passive.
Of course, for everything else, there was no comparison, but the advantages of active operation could nonetheless be heard even on pieces of equipment so different and intended for totally different purposes.
So my vote (and now being the owner of an fully active 3 way speaker system) is to go active over passive if you possibly can re the extra cost and cable complexity as regards the SBL's.
Cheers
Stuart Frazer
pfm Member
Generally speaking, the Naim passive crossovers are a compromise - the Naim upgrade ladder is designed for Active Operation (SNAXO, Power Supply and more Power Amps, Speaker Cables = more Naim sales). However, a better power amp can be better than an active setup. This was proved when Naim introduced the NAP 500 Amplifier. I've not heard it, but most people report that a single NAP 500 running DBLs passively beats an active 6 x 135 setup. But it's not that simple, with aftermarket products like the upgraded Avondale SBL Passive Crossovers now available. Rontoolsie of this parish went from active DBLs (3 x 500s) to a single 500 passive setup with super component and better designed passive crossovers. The latter was reported to be vastly better. The Naim active crossovers are compromised in themselves as they are designed to work across the range of naim speakers. A better approach would be for the active crossover to be specific to each speaker model, but that would involve having several SNAXO models.
In the OPs shoes, I would seriously consider 3rd party passive crossovers and then Avondale NCC300 amplifiers.
In the OPs shoes, I would seriously consider 3rd party passive crossovers and then Avondale NCC300 amplifiers.
Interesting point. If the Avondale XO has altered with the roll off or cut off of the XO compared to Naim, as opposed to using better components/layout. However if that is the case what is to stop similar alterations to a (S)NAXO? Well you may be limited in what you can easily do but cut off could, can, was adjusted for different speakers, admittedly Naim's all used the same values by design but there were NAXO for Kans that had different values? Maybe some other specials were done? Briks? If you find out the Avondale XO frequency response it might be possible to replicate it in a (S)NAXO ...
Stuart Frazer
pfm Member
The Naim active crossovers can be set for different speakers so long as you use the correct 2/3 way (S)NAXO. Salisbury used to be able to set these up for you. And yes, the Naim (S)NAXO can be bettered in itself by Bespoke Passive and Active Crossovers.
PFM DBL discussion here:
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/aftermarket-crossover-for-naim-speakers-dbls.7326/
Suffolk Tony
Aim low, achieve your goals, avoid disappointment.
Of course, a better option is to have your SNAXO modified by Avondale.
Yeah that is sort of where I was going ...
Stuart Frazer
pfm Member
Yes Tony, forgot about that option! Hope you are well.
Mr Underhill
pfm Member
Yep, that's where I am heading.
Suffolk Tony
Aim low, achieve your goals, avoid disappointment.
Apart from being old and senile, OK ta!
Jonboi
Because Music Matters
It's both interesting and disappointing to hear that both Naims passive and active crossovers were compromises to suit all the speakers in their then range.
Pretty crude by todays standards - my current fully active speakers are all individually calibrated referenced to a Master, by computer. So example A is going to be near as possible to example Z off the production line, and all as close as possible to the original tuning/voicing of the master.
Still, the SBl's were and to a degree remain an excellent speaker despite the passage of time and advances in the field.
Cheers
You do realise SBLs and SNAXOs were first on sale over 30 years ago before your current fully active computer matched fandango speakers were even thought of. You're not comparing like with like!
I have had sbl's and used them for years both passive and active.
They are a good speaker for todays money if you have a system and room that can cope with them, as they need a solid wall behind them.
They are bass light, they are over bright, they can be a pain to set up, with the seal and pins, they do really need to run active as the standard naim crossovers are poor and lastly the drive units are expensive to replace if needed.
Finding a good pair can be difficult and knowing what state the drive units are in is once again difficult, but for around £500 they do offer great value if you have a nice pair.
There are much better speakers to be had these days as i found out and if you add up the extra cost running active, then you might be able to afford better passive speakers in the first place and thats what i have done and have a much better sounding system for it.
They are a good speaker for todays money if you have a system and room that can cope with them, as they need a solid wall behind them.
They are bass light, they are over bright, they can be a pain to set up, with the seal and pins, they do really need to run active as the standard naim crossovers are poor and lastly the drive units are expensive to replace if needed.
Finding a good pair can be difficult and knowing what state the drive units are in is once again difficult, but for around £500 they do offer great value if you have a nice pair.
There are much better speakers to be had these days as i found out and if you add up the extra cost running active, then you might be able to afford better passive speakers in the first place and thats what i have done and have a much better sounding system for it.
Mr Underhill
pfm Member
This is system dependent, in my system/room they are not.
Perhaps SBL discussions now belong in the classics forum, they are after all classics, comparing them to modern loudspeakers is like comparing an 80s car to a modern road beast.
Bass light? No, not set up correctly with a solid supporting wall and decent system behind them, more like bass tight. Sure no ultra low trouser flapping sub stuff, but plenty of tuneful, articulate, tight bass as opposed to the one note bloat of poorly tuned ported speakers for example. This was, as I understand it, the purpose of Roy George's acoustic resistance design on the lower box.
EDIT: Nor are they particularly bright I suggest ... I remember contempory What HiFi choice of metal dome beasts at the Bristol show leaving a very shrill impression on my ears ...
Bass light? No, not set up correctly with a solid supporting wall and decent system behind them, more like bass tight. Sure no ultra low trouser flapping sub stuff, but plenty of tuneful, articulate, tight bass as opposed to the one note bloat of poorly tuned ported speakers for example. This was, as I understand it, the purpose of Roy George's acoustic resistance design on the lower box.
EDIT: Nor are they particularly bright I suggest ... I remember contempory What HiFi choice of metal dome beasts at the Bristol show leaving a very shrill impression on my ears ...
lagavullin10y
pfm Member
I came from BW loudspeakers and this description is precisely why I love my SBLs so much.