A new low for the Tories?

[Rockmeister]

I note he didn't apologise for what he said, but for the use of language, which, he says, he is now too mature to use.
I can see this being one of those...NOOOOO pause now and think moments, but....
something about the sentiment; careless parenting; some couples deliberately producing children to claim benefits etc is actually, true.
(before ye shout, Mrs Rock spent 4 long years behind the social counter in SE london and her stories are true).
OFC he comes across as an arse, but the basic idea that careless parenting should not be rewarded is one I think I like.

 

[Tony L]

As for the “we need an effective opposition” routine, WTF? The Tories have been unable to pursue any of their agenda. Why do you think this is?

Because, like Labour would now if there was another election, they failed to secure a majority and the party itself is so split over Brexit. Be honest, any decent opposition party should have a 20% poll lead over this shower of incompetent directionless idiots. It is incomprehensible that they are all but level-pegging.

 

[monkfish]

Because, like Labour would now if there was another election, they failed to secure a majority and the party itself is so split over Brexit. Be honest, any decent opposition party should have a 20% poll lead over this shower of incompetent directionless idiots. It is incomprehensible that they are all but level-pegging.

One dubious yougov poll would have you believe so, it'll be relentlessly paraded in the media, that's for sure.

 

[maxflinn]

It's not incomprehensible Tony. There are two camps within Labour vying for control: the right-wing ideologues who support austerity, US/Neocon foreign policy and continued neoliberalism and privatisation, ie, the policies which have led to massive inequality, a floundering NHS, ISIS, and Brexit.

And the Corbyn faction who want to fuse some socialism with capitalism to try to tackle inequality and help build a fairer society, so tax the rich more, get rid of tax loopholes for the rich and giant companies, properly fund the NHS, create an investment bank for massive council house building, investing in infrastructure, investing in training etc. They are opposed to US foreign policy and the inherent death and destruction that goes with it.

Add to this a massive divide over Brexit and a media completely and utterly behind the former, right-wing/Neocon faction which spreads negative fake news about the Corbyn faction on an almost daily basis and has done for 2.5 years while talking up the Tories, and its actually amazing to see how well Labour under Corbyn is doing.

So it is simply not incomprehensible why they aren't way ahead. It is obvious why they are not.

 

[monkfish]

Can't argue with any of that max, well put.

 

[HarryB]

Because, like Labour would now if there was another election, they failed to secure a majority and the party itself is so split over Brexit. Be honest, any decent opposition party should have a 20% poll lead over this shower of incompetent directionless idiots. It is incomprehensible that they are all but level-pegging.

Tony, I don't believe they are anywhere near Ievel pegging. Look at the alleged lead the Tories had before their disastrous last election.

Labour will win the next election by a big margin. Get money on it now.

More importantly the defeat that the Tories are heading for will mark the beginning of the party's descent to complete obliteration.

Older Tories are dying at a rather satisfying rate and younger voters overwhelmingly support Labour. Add to that the demise of Tory propaganda sheets AKA as newspapers and it's a perfect storm.

 

[HarryB]

Max, the fight within Labour is over. We won.

The left don't completely control the party YET but it's very close.

Look at the votes just cast for the ruling executive.

The game is us up for the Pink Tories and the Blue Tories.

 

[Tony L]

Labour will win the next election by a big margin. Get money on it now.

If I were to put money down now it would be on another hung parliament, but this time Labour propped up by Libs, Plaid, SNP, Green.

PS Don’t forget the boundary changes will take from Labour and give to Tory. They may well take from Lib Dems too and will certainly rule any other runners out aside from Brighton which will likely stay Green.

 

[Seanm]

Because, like Labour would now if there was another election, they failed to secure a majority and the party itself is so split over Brexit. Be honest, any decent opposition party should have a 20% poll lead over this shower of incompetent directionless idiots. It is incomprehensible that they are all but level-pegging.

You had me going I admit it. I’m getting easy to troll in my old age.

 

[ian r]

It's not incomprehensible Tony. There are two camps within Labour vying for control: the right-wing ideologues who support austerity, US/Neocon foreign policy and continued neoliberalism and privatisation, ie, the policies which have led to massive inequality, a floundering NHS, ISIS, and Brexit.

And the Corbyn faction who want to fuse some socialism with capitalism to try to tackle inequality and help build a fairer society, so tax the rich more, get rid of tax loopholes for the rich and giant companies, properly fund the NHS, create an investment bank for massive council house building, investing in infrastructure, investing in training etc. They are opposed to US foreign policy and the inherent death and destruction that goes with it.

Add to this a massive divide over Brexit and a media completely and utterly behind the former, right-wing/Neocon faction which spreads negative fake news about the Corbyn faction on an almost daily basis and has done for 2.5 years while talking up the Tories, and its actually amazing to see how well Labour under Corbyn is doing.

So it is simply not incomprehensible why they aren't way ahead. It is obvious why they are not.

Nicely put I wish the same REASONIng was routinely applied to the present US administration

those of us who lived thru Mrs Thatcher and worried about Reagan and Pol Pot and Apartheid South Africa etc do not help imo by feeding the absurd levels of denial about the failures of old commies ( not a corbyn dig) such as merkel and most of the European leftwing ..who are also centrists in their heads and big state types ..hence remoaning ...i see most of the wholly owned Neocons in the labour and liberal party who to my brief thoughts outnumber the Neocons in The Conservatives...

recall the 66 labour Neocons who coted with the Tory neocons to bomb Syria

from Heidi Alexander to John Woodcock.... 66 complete globalist Neocons

i have no faith in Corbyn winning this fight (we have Plenty of old commie Labour up here in Scotland they are centralist bueracrats who have utterly failed ) especially ifJC is in office... like Trump perhaps employment may rise, business may be happy and wars maybe ended... Democrats start more wars than republicans and its all for Democracy but like Reagan at Rekjavik or Trumps 'economic boom' no credit will be given at the time

hooray for democracy Neocon style... feed that military industrial banking academic complex

Anyway for me the denialism is the problem both my own and certainly in the governing classes... theres no profit in that path

if it helps i was a member of the greens for decades but left once the apparatchiks took over some 5 years ago once a hung parliament such as Tony envisions became a posibility

 

[HarryB]

If I were to put money down now it would be on another hung parliament, but this time Labour propped up by Libs, Plaid, SNP, Green.

PS Don’t forget the boundary changes will take from Labour and give to Tory. They may well take from Lib Dems too and will certainly rule any other runners out aside from Brighton which will likely stay Green.

Oh ye of little faith. I'm absolutely certain of a Labour majority.

Big money riding on it in fact ;-)

 

[Tony L]

When do you think the election will be? I’ve got a tenner at 7/1 on next year thinking the Tories will collapse once it is evident they have totally screwed up Brexit and our economy. The mess will then be handed to Labour, who will be able to do little if anything as the damage has been done by the current shower of clowns. My worry is Labour will in effect carry the can as the real shit will hit the fan in that term, i.e. it wouldn’t surprise me that if they do win a majority they’ll only get a single term as the country’s economy will be in such a mess thanks to Tory Brexit which they did not formally oppose.

 

[HarryB]

Tony, I'm convinced it will be this year. The NHS is going to do for the Tory scum. Well, more specifically Carillion and NHS combination. That hospital in Liverpool ain't getting built any time soon and there'll be other shit hitting the fan in the coming days.

Labour majority is still 7/4. Very generous odds IMHO.

Momentum's savvy with social media is making big strides all the time.

 

[HarryB]

Then there's that ****wit Boris to factor in. He is capable of anything

 

[audioq]

It's not incomprehensible Tony. There are two camps within Labour vying for control: the right-wing ideologues who support austerity, US/Neocon foreign policy and continued neoliberalism and privatisation, ie, the policies which have led to massive inequality, a floundering NHS, ISIS, and Brexit.

And the Corbyn faction who want to fuse some socialism with capitalism to try to tackle inequality and help build a fairer society, so tax the rich more, get rid of tax loopholes for the rich and giant companies, properly fund the NHS, create an investment bank for massive council house building, investing in infrastructure, investing in training etc. They are opposed to US foreign policy and the inherent death and destruction that goes with it.

Add to this a massive divide over Brexit and a media completely and utterly behind the former, right-wing/Neocon faction which spreads negative fake news about the Corbyn faction on an almost daily basis and has done for 2.5 years while talking up the Tories, and its actually amazing to see how well Labour under Corbyn is doing.

So it is simply not incomprehensible why they aren't way ahead. It is obvious why they are not.

Can't disagree with any of this. But there is still a nagging doubt in my mind that at the crunch voters will not elect JC as Prime Minister regardless. We live in very shallow times where image is everthing and substance never gets the time/chance to show itself. I would not be confident of a Labour victory in a GE even given the total mess the Tories have made of most things they have touched. I also think that Labour would be far more likely to win a GE with someone from the centre/right of the party and a good public image in charge (yeah, shallow maybe.) Hope I am wrong.

 

[Tony L]

I also think that Labour would be far more likely to win a GE with someone from the centre/right of the party and a good public image in charge (yeah, shallow maybe.) Hope I am wrong.

I did at one stage, but I’ve changed my mind on this now. I do think the political position is starting to resonate now, but I also think Corbyn is the wrong front-man as he is just so easy for the political right to hammer with accusations of anti-semitism, IRA sympathy etc etc. He just has too much historical baggage and now he is a real threat he’ll be crucified by the right-wing press. They need someone youngervand rather sharper in interviews. I suspect Barry Gardiner might be my choice now, though I’d love to see a young female candidate in the ring.

 

[notaclue]

Before the election, you could make a very good argument that Corbyn wasn't the answer as he could never win and he simply hadn't performed at the needed level for a leader.

That argument has now gone. He put it to bed in the election campaign.

There is still a doubt about his competence, but then look at how dismal May is whenever she's out of the Commons. Or look at Johnson when he's anywhere.

 

[Cav]

When do you think the election will be? I’ve got a tenner at 7/1 on next year thinking the Tories will collapse once it is evident they have totally screwed up Brexit and our economy. The mess will then be handed to Labour, who will be able to do little if anything as the damage has been done by the current shower of clowns. My worry is Labour will in effect carry the can as the real shit will hit the fan in that term, i.e. it wouldn’t surprise me that if they do win a majority they’ll only get a single term as the country’s economy will be in such a mess thanks to Tory Brexit which they did not formally oppose.

Why would Labour agree to an election before Brexit is done?

 

[Tony L]

Why would Labour agree to an election before Brexit is done?

They have stated publicly several times they are on an election footing now and ready to go. Right from the top too, e.g. Corbyn has said this.

 

[audioq]

Why would Labour agree to an election before Brexit is done?

Because they want to implement a brexit which prioritises jobs? If Labour are left with a train wreck of an economy post Tory brexit, they will carry the can for it. A week is a long time in politics!