A leaking shower conundrum

[-alan-]

We have a shower in the bathroom on the first floor. The damn thing leaks onto the ceiling of the room below - but seemingly only when my daughter uses it.

I've pulled the trim boards that surround the shower tray to get a good look underneath, and removed another 6' section of wooden panelling that hides the shower and toilet waste water pipes - but can't find the leak. But still the water finds its way out somewhere, and comes through the plasterboard ceiling of the room underneath.

Funny thing is it doesn't happen when anybody else uses the shower. I thought it might be down to the fact that being a female of the long-haired persuasion, she takes much longer showers than the rest of us - so have experimented with leaving the shower running for 10-15 minutes to see if I can replicate the leak, but nada, dry as a bone.

Short of pulling off a chunk of the plasterboard off the ceiling in the room below and trying to trace the leak back, Im not really sure where to go next to fix the thing. (There's about a 1ft square section of the plasterboard that will need replaced at this stage, so that is actually an option btw)/

Anybody any ideas why the shower only leaks in particular circumstances, or how I might manage to trace the leak with more success than I've had to date ?

 

[mandryka]

Is the water hitting a wall, penetrating maybe through the grout lines of the tiles, and then finding its way down to the floor below? I had that problem once. The solution was to retile using swimming pool quality grout.

By the way, until the problem is solved I advise putting a little hole in the ceiling at the point where the water drips. What you don't want is that the water accumulates and the weight causes the ceiling to collapse.

 

[twotone]

Probably leaking through the tiles and or grout or around the seals between the tiles and the shower tray/enclosure.

Likely that your daughter is directing the water to the leak by the way she showers/stands in the shower tray.

 

[matt j]

Perhaps she uses it differently to the rest of you, maybe she removes the shower head out of the bracket and inadvertently sprays water somewhere nobody else does?

Even though you can't see the leak in use, can you at least see the evidence of where it comes from when it has leaked? There's usually something to trace with water leaks, even when it is dry.

 

[twotone]

In my experience 99% of these leaks are down to tiles/grout/seals and very very occasionally a leaking waste pipe but if the leak is there all of the time then the shower (electric/mixer) itself would be leaking or a pipe feeding it.

Easiest way to find something like this is from below but that involves destroying a ceiling or at least making a hole in the ceiling in order to pass a camera up, you can buy cheap colour ones for about £100 or contact your insurer who will possibly pay for track and trace.

Just keep using it and you'll find it eventually cause the ceiling will come down or a part of it will.

Might not even be the shower it could be leak from an internal rainwater pipe or a wc cistern overflow or anything really.

 

[Brian]

Alan,

Can’t help much but I can tell you we recently had water coming through the dining room ceiling light from the bathroom above.

The plumbing arm called ‘Dyno’of British Gas came round. Initial investigation pointed towards the toilet inlet and a temporary repair was done pending a return visit. However, I called them again 24 hours later because the leak became worse.

3 x 12” dia holes in the ceiling later and 5 leaks were found, one was from the shower drain away (whatever it’s called), 3 from the toilet but the major leak was from a main water pipe into the bathroom located just inside the doorway. The bloke used a camera to find the main leak.

The holes in the ceiling were repaired last week, I need to blend them in (artex) and repaint.

Basically, the message is, the water appeared in the room below 6 feet away from the location of the major leak.

 

[twotone]

Alan,

Can’t help much but I can tell you we recently had water coming through the dining room ceiling light from the bathroom above.

The plumbing arm called ‘Dyno’of British Gas came round. Initial investigation pointed towards the toilet inlet and a temporary repair was done pending a return visit. However, I called them again 24 hours later because the leak became worse.

3 x 12” dia holes in the ceiling later and 5 leaks were found, one was from the shower drain away (whatever it’s called), 3 from the toilet but the major leak was from a main water pipe into the bathroom located just inside the doorway. The bloke used a camera to find the main leak.

The holes in thw ceiling were repaired last week, I need to blend them in (artex) and repaint.

Basically, the message is, the water appeared in the room below 6 feet away from the location of the major leak.

Yep, when I first started my apprenticeship (I'm a plumber BTW) one of the very first things that I was taught was that water finds it's own level might sound simple that sort of thing but it's amazing the amount of people I've talked to about things like this in over 45 years who can't grasp that very simple fact.

 

[Bodkin]

Usually from my experience it's the silicone seal as already mentioned. The seal may look good, but just needs a tiny split to let water in.
You said you turned the shower on and let run for 10mins. You need to be there spraying everywhere especially the seal area for longer. Tiny splits take time for water to find it's way through etc.
Was the shower area tanked? Possible it could be water Ingress through the grout as grout not waterproof. Plasterboard behind?

 

[-alan-]

Thanks all for the input.

pic of the affected area in the room below.

As suggested, the damage has got to the point where the plasterboard has started to sag. I had drilled a small hole to let the water out to stop the whole lot collapsing, but it's at the point where something needs done.

In answer to some of the points raised - Im sure the leak is coming from the shower, as it only ever happens when 'herself' is in the shower, and happens consistently about 10 mins or so into the process.

In terms of trying to replicate the problem, I've run the shower for about 20 mins or more on different occasions, using the showered to direct the water around the three tiled walls of the enclosure to see if that would replicate the problem. It doesnt. Thoughts are that it's maybe a combination of a person's weight on the shower tray and the extended running time that are causing the problem perhaps.

Might be time for more drastic measures like instructing the child to put on a modesty preserving wetsuit and conduct a controlled showering test with all of the shower tray access panels removed to better see what's going on. (I can imagine already how that'll go down with the better half and offspring .. )

 

[Bodkin]

Photos of shower area?
Ceiling sagging etc, i would just cut out section and investigate.
Easy to replace ceiling section, between 2 joists and make good, though on occasion may have to make hole area bigger if by chance can only fix leak from below.
I just viewed your post again, you removed trim boards around shower. Photo of that and underside would be good.

 

[MikeMA]

Are you sure the leak is actually in the shower or associated plumbing/drainage?

I had a problem very similar to what you are describing. The shower only ever leaked when Mrs MikeMA was in it. Our shower has a flexible hose and after much head scratching I discovered that Mrs Mike used to take it off the wall and spray the water horizontally and liberally around her feet (don't ask) and it would leak out under the shower screen and over tray edge where there was a small gap in the sealant, then run across the floor and drain away through a small gap between the skirting board and the floor. I re-sealed the bottom of the shower screen and ran the sealant round the bottom of the skirting board and problem solved.

 

[Bob McC]

Is your daughter old enough to ask to leave home?

 

[-alan-]

She's the academic one in the family Bob. My last hope for one who'll be financially self-sufficient before the age of 30 and perhaps with spare income to lavish on her geriatric parents down the line in years to come - so no, (or not yet at least..)

@MikeMA That is a possibility Mike. The door doesn't always close properly, and can drip water onto the floor outside. I've looked at the floorboards under the door as part of the head-scratching searches in the past, but they never looked wet. Could be there is a particular style of usage that is causing problems there though. Will run a test.

Photos of shower area?
Ceiling sagging etc, i would just cut out section and investigate.
Easy to replace ceiling section, between 2 joists and make good, though on occasion may have to make hole area bigger if by chance can only fix leak from below.
I just viewed your post again, you removed trim boards around shower. Photo of that and underside would be good.

Whilst that would make complete and utter sense - having had two semi-feral teenage males and their almost as poorly house-trained sister at home, using that bathroom and shower for the last week, I'd be run out the house if the better half ever found out I'd gone public with photos, so that's a polite but firm No Candylion

 

[Vinny]

A bit late now, but I have never had any leaks because I always tile and then fit the bath or shower tray. Sealing tiles to a tray or bath is extremely difficult and it fails eventually. Sealing a tray or bath to a tile, with huge ammounts of sealant, never fails.
If and when you take the tray out, add one row of tiles below the current lowest row - cheap as chips, anything. Grout them and then seal the tray to the new row of tiles.

 

[Bodkin]

No worries Alan, shame as close up photos always help .
You informed you removed the trim around shower, I take it in that not sealed. I assume then your shower tray raised? . Next time you daughter leaves room after having a shower, remove trim and look again to see if any signs of water , especially on wall area, and trim area incase water ingress from outside.

 

[John Barry]

Check the internal corners of the shower tiling to ensure that there is a sound silicone seal all the way up. That's where our shower leaked after a few years

If it's the junction between the tiles & shower tray you can use a 10mm acrylic section bedded in silicone to fix that one without taking everything apart

 

[Bob McC]

She's the academic one in the family Bob. My last hope for one who'll be financially self-sufficient before the age of 30 and perhaps with spare income to lavish on her geriatric parents down the line in years to come - so no, (or not yet at least..)

I understand.
My own daughter is the one of my three kids that I hope will be able to provide me with a decent staring window for my dotage...

 

[twotone]

Tiling behind a bath or shower tray is a recipe for disaster.

The best method is to fit the bath or tray then the plaster board onto the top of the bath then the tiles then the silicone seal after filling the bath to the overflow level and leaving for 24 hours.

Modern shower trays, at least the best ones, come with an upstand so plaster board down to the floor fit the shower tray and tile to the top of the tray then install the enclosure and seal with silicone or per the manufacturer’s instructions for both the tray and the enclosure.

The best shower trays are the ones with the upstand and feet with removable panels.

However you cannot beat a lead safe but no one does that nowadays unless it’s specified by an architect and that sort of install is only done in hospitals or top quality hotels and even then I suspect that it’s rarely done now. Exact same is done with ceramic or glazed urinals which are porous.

 

[Linds]

If it’s caused by weight of person opening up a sealant gap they can get in there without neoprene i.e. fully clothed, carrying a bbq gas bottle if needs be, then at floor level avec torch you should be able to identify movement or gaps. You can also duct tape a few possible suspect areas when they’re bone dry and see if a proper demo shower then has any less drippage

 

[-alan-]

If it was purely the weight though, it should happen when either of the two boys (both of whom are larger) use the shower.

Am more and more drawn to the possibility that it is down to the way that the female culprit uses the shower and/or whether she closes the door properly.