A bit about AI and the future of music, and that devilish Auto-Tune
- Thread starter tuga
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Tony L
Administrator
I like the Beato, but he really does get wound-up about new music. Music is fine. Some folk even use auto-tune in interesting ways, e.g. check out Yeule’s wonderful ‘Glitch Princess’, one of the best albums of last year. You’ll find some on the Kendrick Lamar album, on the Sufjan Stevens album, which are some of the other best albums of last year. It is just a tool, it destroyed nothing. The vacuous pop crap was going to be vacuous pop crap with or without auto-tune, vocoders etc.
PS Oi! Beato! Not everyone wants to sound like the bloody Eagles!
PS Oi! Beato! Not everyone wants to sound like the bloody Eagles!
Aethelist
pfm Member
Err maybe not. But those 4 or 5 part vocal harmonies they sang were real people actually singing together. In real time. Playing instruments too.
Not like the computer generated, sex orientated load of cynical svengali bollocks that people seem to suck up these days.
Words cannot describe how much I dislike that crap.
manicatel
pfm Member
In my youth, I was in a band, like a fair few others here.
When I was at a gig, or listening to records, I wanted to hear what the professionals did, whether it was the technique & skill of a jazz quartet or the raw energy of the punk & new wave stuff.
How could I get better, what could I learn from these guys, how could I make the leap from semi-pro to actually making a living out of playing keyboards.
Why would I want to listen to, or respect someone who can’t sing & has to rely on a gadget to keep them in tune?
No, not everyone has to be able to hit a harmony like the Eagles & not everyone wants to listen to them.
But for Christ sake, if you can’t sing, step away from the mic!
( old white git rant over).
When I was at a gig, or listening to records, I wanted to hear what the professionals did, whether it was the technique & skill of a jazz quartet or the raw energy of the punk & new wave stuff.
How could I get better, what could I learn from these guys, how could I make the leap from semi-pro to actually making a living out of playing keyboards.
Why would I want to listen to, or respect someone who can’t sing & has to rely on a gadget to keep them in tune?
No, not everyone has to be able to hit a harmony like the Eagles & not everyone wants to listen to them.
But for Christ sake, if you can’t sing, step away from the mic!
( old white git rant over).
The reworked first single from Frank Ocean’s Blonde above, one of the best-reviewed albums of the last ten years. Meanwhile, now five straight weeks as number one album in America for SZA’s SOS after its release last month...
AutoTune is used in my examples (and Tony’s) like any other instrument, and has nothing to do with vocal prowess. Here’s Frank’s tv debut for how to sing. There’s more imagination, more creativity, more relevance, and more music in the short videos above than the overwhelming majority of guitar bands these days manage, ever.
I almost feel sorry for anyone who can’t see all that, or won’t even try to; instead buying albums from new and old bands treading over the same old ground, year after year. Dull anodyne songs. Then every December, “There weren’t many good releases this year.” Rinse and repeat.
There’s loads of brilliant new music every year; and yes, some of it uses AutoTune.
AutoTune is used in my examples (and Tony’s) like any other instrument, and has nothing to do with vocal prowess. Here’s Frank’s tv debut for how to sing. There’s more imagination, more creativity, more relevance, and more music in the short videos above than the overwhelming majority of guitar bands these days manage, ever.
I almost feel sorry for anyone who can’t see all that, or won’t even try to; instead buying albums from new and old bands treading over the same old ground, year after year. Dull anodyne songs. Then every December, “There weren’t many good releases this year.” Rinse and repeat.
There’s loads of brilliant new music every year; and yes, some of it uses AutoTune.
Tony L
Administrator
From a very young age I’ve always liked electronic music, so I remember all the outcry about synthesisers, drum machines, sequencers etc from Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk etc onwards. The Musicians Union went absolutely batshit crazy and tried to get synth-based music re-scored for orchestras etc for BBC sessions etc (link). That all seems ridiculous now, as it should. I thought it ridiculous at the time (I had a Korg MS10 and a Boss DR55). Synth technology has enabled so much amazing new music to emerge, which is exactly what new technology always does. It doesn’t stop any prior technology, e.g. there are still endless guitar, bass & drums rock bands right now 50+ years after Kraftwerk, TD, Giorgio Moroder etc. Synth, drum machine and sequencer technology just added to the available options, they blocked absolutely nothing off. Same argument was made when the electric guitar first appeared etc.
I’m sorry, but on this particular issue Beato sounds just like the MU did in 1982. An old man shouting at clouds.
FWIW I detest auto-tune the way it is used in lowest common denominator chart pop, but I’ve never liked lowest common denominator chart pop no matter what technology was behind it. It is the equivalent of trying to ban analogue synthesis because of The Birdy Song or ban microphones because of Black Lace. They are just tools, you can produce absolute shite or great art with any equipment. The wonder of modern technology is that anyone can have a studio vastly more powerful than even Trevor Horn’s in the ‘80s with a MacBook Air and a copy of Logic. Talent and originality is all that is required now, not corporate backing. A true democratisation of resources.
PS As for the AI lyric thing, yes, it was dreadful, but that doesn’t mean it has no use. Remember Bowie, Eno etc spent hours cutting words up and rearranging them into lyrics with a degree of randomisation, plus think of Eno’s Oblique Strategies cards (every home should have a set, though sadly out of stock). Never fear technology, just use it creatively. Abuse it if necessary. There will be some great art to be found in there somewhere.
I’m sorry, but on this particular issue Beato sounds just like the MU did in 1982. An old man shouting at clouds.
FWIW I detest auto-tune the way it is used in lowest common denominator chart pop, but I’ve never liked lowest common denominator chart pop no matter what technology was behind it. It is the equivalent of trying to ban analogue synthesis because of The Birdy Song or ban microphones because of Black Lace. They are just tools, you can produce absolute shite or great art with any equipment. The wonder of modern technology is that anyone can have a studio vastly more powerful than even Trevor Horn’s in the ‘80s with a MacBook Air and a copy of Logic. Talent and originality is all that is required now, not corporate backing. A true democratisation of resources.
PS As for the AI lyric thing, yes, it was dreadful, but that doesn’t mean it has no use. Remember Bowie, Eno etc spent hours cutting words up and rearranging them into lyrics with a degree of randomisation, plus think of Eno’s Oblique Strategies cards (every home should have a set, though sadly out of stock). Never fear technology, just use it creatively. Abuse it if necessary. There will be some great art to be found in there somewhere.
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Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
Overuse of auto tune is just a consequence of record companies forcing artists to perform music that their algorithms say will shift units, rather than, like in the goo old days, allowing them time to develop (ie have a few flops) and find their own voice or style.
Bottom line - stick to artists who haven't peddled their ass to a major for a few hit singles.
Bottom line - stick to artists who haven't peddled their ass to a major for a few hit singles.
Great post Tony L, there's always some new-fangled stuff that the "old guard" will take umbrage at, your points about the early 70s electronic music is right on the money.
As far as I can see, Autotune is just a more accessible version of piecing together bits of vocal on tape to make up the song, that's something that will have been going on since tape recording was invented.
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tuga
Legal Alien
I have just tried to listen to those videos you posted but just couldn't find anything appealing or compelling.
Not my genre so I can't say if they're creative or not for that particular category.
I'm going back to my flamenco afternoon...
tuga
Legal Alien
I guess it could be a matter of taste because for as long as I can remember I have always detested electronic music.
I do agree that it is or should be possible to use auto-tune creatively, just as any other tool.
To be fair to Beato the examples he gave were of chart-pop. I don't listen to pop anyway...
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tuga
Legal Alien
Tony L
Administrator
To my mind (without ever having used it) auto-tune is just an easier to use sampler-like technology. I’d be more interested in using it on found sounds etc; manipulating natural sounds, shifting instruments into unnatural pitch registers etc etc. Same thing with vocoders, even back when I bought and sold vintage synths as a second income in the late-80s early-90s vocoders were a total cliche if you used them on voice. They could however be really interesting for manipulating a synth pad with a drum-loop or whatever, so it wasn’t the technology at fault at all. I had both the vintage Korg and Roland pass through.
Analogue synthesis itself had a very long and rocky road to acceptance. It took a very long time until the highly original thinking Stockhausen, Morton Subotnik etc started to permeate into the world of rock and ended up a whole new genre of its own with Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk etc. Synthesis was stuck in the ‘sci-fi alien’ or ‘cheesy fake oboe’ role for ages before it really found its place. It is now obviously part of the furniture, just as accepted as a electric guitar or drum kit.
One thing that is very interesting with auto-tune is by its nature is likely anywhere anyway, e.g. it wouldn’t surprise me if the likes of Aphex Twin, Squarepusher, Autechre and any number of instrumental electronica producers weren’t running all manner of non-vocal sounds through it as one of countless available plug-in manipulation paths. Bottom line is it is just another tool. Use/don’t use to taste.
Good stuff.
Mentioned at the bottom of that article, after the nods to Meredith Monk, Philip Glass, Steve Reich, and all that... the Harry Christelis album sounds excellent. Have put a post in the new jazz thread.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
It's more than that. It took me a while to realise that some artists sing straight into autotune when they track they're vocals - they're effectively 'playing' autotune in real time rather than it being something used to 'correct' vocals afterwards.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
A lot of stuff based primarily around processed vocals leaves me a bit cold but that sounds interesting - will investigate. Thanks.