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909 switch on "thump"

What Jez is describing are simple basic yesteryear power amplifier designs. Also the use of relays in quality audio is an old technology that was superseded decades ago.

Today with the availability of much higher quality components at relatively lower cost there is no excuse for quality HiFi power amplifiers to take a power surge during switch on that causes a momentary voltage drop on the ring main and creates thumps from your loud speakers. Poor value for money. Also should provide protection from over load spikes caused by faulty equipment or operational error e.g. pre-amp powered on after power amplifier.

As outlined previously my Meridian 559 amps designed some 20 years ago have all the above covered. I can't definitely say that they don't have a relay as I'm missing the schematic for the power supply and thats possibly because it has a proprietary soft-start system. However there is an awful amount of logic protection circuitry shown in the schematics that I have.

Cheers,

DV
 
What Jez is describing are simple basic yesteryear power amplifier designs. Also the use of relays in quality audio is an old technology that was superseded decades ago.

Today with the availability of much higher quality components at relatively lower cost there is no excuse for quality HiFi power amplifiers to take a power surge during switch on that causes a momentary voltage drop on the ring main and creates thumps from your loud speakers. Poor value for money. Also should provide protection from over load spikes caused by faulty equipment or operational error e.g. pre-amp powered on after power amplifier.

As outlined previously my Meridian 559 amps designed some 20 years ago have all the above covered. I can't definitely say that they don't have a relay as I'm missing the schematic for the power supply and thats possibly because it has a proprietary soft-start system. However there is an awful amount of logic protection circuitry shown in the schematics that I have.

Cheers,

DV

There is an old maxim that it is better to remain silent and risk people thinking you know nothing than to open your mouth and confirm it.

EVERYTHING you say is completely, utterly laughably wrong! If only Dunning and Kruger had the likes of you (and you aren't the only one on here) to study then their hypothesis would have been proven far earlier in their careers.

Right well I once did an hour or so St John's ambulance training so I'm off to find some medical sites where I'll tell consultant neurosurgeons how to go about brain surgery.... and that they've been doing it all wrong...
 
I've had a 909 and a 520 that both produced a thump, but nothing that bothered me really. More important to me was that they both sounded great.

On the other hand I bought a 303 that had an alarming effect on my old Eaton's; those little 10" drivers looked like they were making a bid for freedom each time I turned the amp on. Thankfully the guy I bought the 303 from was happy to take it back. My current 303 makes that gentle little flup noise Tony L describes.
 
I've had a 909 and a 520 that both produced a thump, but nothing that bothered me really. More important to me was that they both sounded great.

On the other hand I bought a 303 that had an alarming effect on my old Eaton's; those little 10" drivers looked like they were making a bid for freedom each time I turned the amp on. Thankfully the guy I bought the 303 from was happy to take it back. My current 303 makes that gentle little flup noise Tony L describes.

That's normal for a cap coupled amp like a 303 and many will do it much more so than your 303 did. Sometimes things can be arranged so that the charging happens slowly and the thump becomes much less audible, such as in a standard 303. The first one probably had been modded. It may well have sounded better but with the behaviour during power up changing as you observed.
 
Is all that clever electronics keeping everything in check a bit like driver aids on a car though. Some people value their ABS, traction control, lane assist, stability control etc etc, and other people buy 80s porsche 911 turbos, lotuses and TVRs. Its a different experience, is either better? I cannot belive anything unnecessary in the signal path or control circuitry is actually improving sonic performance. Maybe that relay is giving you a 99% safety increase, a 5% cost increase for a 1% sonic performance decrease, and that is a trade some people appreciate and some will not tolerate. A friend of mine was very happy recently to build a new wiring harness for a race car and save 800g and made getting the engine out possible without removing all the wiring harness, to most that is just pointless, especially when the cost of materials was more than I paid for my last car, but to her it was absolutely worth it. We all have different priorities.
 
That's normal for a cap coupled amp like a 303 and many will do it much more so than your 303 did. Sometimes things can be arranged so that the charging happens slowly and the thump becomes much less audible, such as in a standard 303. The first one probably had been modded. It may well have sounded better but with the behaviour during power up changing as you observed.
My 303 is totally silent.
My 405 has a faint switch-on click and so has my 306, plus no switch-off noise at all.
The A78 has a bump, plus a nice woofer back and forth movement at switch-off.
I’m not going to review all my relay-less vintage amps!
When the power caps age, the noise can become louder in my experience. ESR imbalance Jez?
 
I’ve personally owned three 303s (still have two), plus had experience of many more, and all have been the same, a gentle characteristic ‘flup’ on power-up unique to that amp, not concerning even through 105db La Scalas, and barely audible at all via little mini-monitors. I’d consider anything louder than this to be a fault condition.
 
The A78 has a bump, plus a nice woofer back and forth movement at switch-off.

That switch-off could possibly be a failed switch-suppression cap, as in fact could any loud crack from a 303 on power-up/off (they are tacked on the bottom of the transformer in a 303 and know to fail, mine have both been replaced).
 
Is all that clever electronics keeping everything in check a bit like driver aids on a car though. Some people value their ABS, traction control, lane assist, stability control etc etc, and other people buy 80s porsche 911 turbos, lotuses and TVRs. Its a different experience, is either better? I cannot belive anything unnecessary in the signal path or control circuitry is actually improving sonic performance. Maybe that relay is giving you a 99% safety increase, a 5% cost increase for a 1% sonic performance decrease, and that is a trade some people appreciate and some will not tolerate. A friend of mine was very happy recently to build a new wiring harness for a race car and save 800g and made getting the engine out possible without removing all the wiring harness, to most that is just pointless, especially when the cost of materials was more than I paid for my last car, but to her it was absolutely worth it. We all have different priorities.

The bit about the relay I can go with yes but the rest of the analogy, whilst I can see it, is a little tenuous.

Any SS power amp type can have switch on and off thumps. It matters not whether it was designed in 1965 or 2021 nor does it matter if it's class A, A/B or D etc. Note I said can and not will.

In the vast majority of SS power amps the speaker is suspended between two voltage rails, one positive with respect to ground and the other negative. A typical 100W amp would use + and - 50V with respect to ground, 100V total.
This output midpoint is obviously kept at 0 Volt for no input signal and moves up and down in sympathy with the musical waveform to drive the speaker.

As I've banged on about so many times before, negative feedback (NFB) controls virtually every parameter of an amplifier (and hence is barely ever mentioned on hi fi forums:rolleyes:) and this includes the keeping of the output at 0V for no input. Off topic but when an amp "goes DC" NFB loses control and in this case the output pegs at either 50V or -50V either pushing the cone right out or sucking it right in and meanwhile putting 312W of DC through the voice coil which quickly fries!

At the moment an amp is switched on the output will try to peg at +50V or -50V (in this case) until the NFB loop gains control of the situation and pulls the output to 0V by "servo action" (which is what NFB is). This is what switch on thump is. On switch off the reverse can happen... ie the voltage in the smoothing capacitors gradually discharges and often a point is reached where there is not enough voltage remaining to keep the NFB going but there is still say 10 or 20V left in the caps which discharges through the speakers making a switch off thump... or even odd noises and whistles as the NFB loses control and the amp becomes unstable.

How loud the thump is and what it sounds like vary enormously with circuit topology.. completely symmetrical, "mirror image" designs tend to pull equally in each direction at switch on and can have virtually no noise at switch on, usually a slight click only. Capacitor-less designs similar as there is nothing to charge up so it all happens so quick all you hear is a slight click. Other topologies can vary from a slight click to a loud crack to a slower thump depending on all sorts of factors which affect the speed at which the NFB gains control and the voltage reached at the output during this time. Even such aspects as the tolerance of the smoothing caps can come into it as if one is say 11000uF and the other is 10000uF then the smaller one will take less time to fully charge... same at switch off time in reverse...

Capacitor coupled output amps tend to be the worst as the capacitor has half the supply voltage on one side and the speaker on the other... At switch on the cap has to charge to half supply voltage and this happens through the speaker giving the often horrendous thump and speaker cone sucked in or pushed out during this time. In some units such as the Quad 303 it is possible to use another capacitor as part of the design which limits the speed at which this charging occurs and so all you get is a "flup".

Now with all the often contradicting factors in the design of an amplifier and with the need to get low distortion, low noise, decent slew rate, wide bandwidth etc etc etc, the issue of what happens during the first 0.05 to 0.3 seconds after switch on is well down the list of priorities! In fact it is only even considered when it could cause damage to the output transistors by them both switching fully on at the same time and destroying themselves... this is rare and beyond the scope of this however.

Sometimes there is a happy synergy where it so happens that fitting a larger capacitor in a part of the circuitry can slow down the charging (in a cap output amp) so there is virtually no switch on thump and the 303 is a good example of this. However what nobody in their right mind does is design the entire circuitry around avoiding a thump in the first 0.1 second after it's switched on and then worry about distortion, frequency response, hum and buzz, damping factor etc etc etc as an afterthought!!

So, it thumps or it doesn't to one extent or another and if it is really bad then a relay can be used at the output, usually doubling as speaker protection relay, which delays connecting the speakers up until the thump has passed.
The relay is usually powered from a separate supply with very small smoothing caps so that on switch off it disconnects the speakers before any switch off thump happens.
 
My 303 is totally silent.
My 405 has a faint switch-on click and so has my 306, plus no switch-off noise at all.
The A78 has a bump, plus a nice woofer back and forth movement at switch-off.
I’m not going to review all my relay-less vintage amps!
When the power caps age, the noise can become louder in my experience. ESR imbalance Jez?

just seen this. I cover the smoothing capacitor aspect of it in my "basic guide to amp thumps" above.

A little anecdote on this:) The MF A370 could develop strange whistles and squeaks during switch off as the caps aged and went out of spec so what we used to do was fit a resistor across one of the rails on each channel (dual mono amp) so that rail discharged at the same speed as the other... problem solved.... for now anyway!

Recapping one of these is rather an expensive job as there were 20 x 22000uf Elna smoothing caps!! They are individually bolted down using capacitor clamps and hand point to point wired as well and sit deep inside the amp requiring a full strip down to access... So about £400 in parts plus maybe 6 hours labour to replace them all!
 
Yes, I knew the resistors across the caps trick. ReVox used to do that too once.
I also do that when I put two PSU electolytics is series in my valve amps - which are very quiet by the way :p
 
Yes, I knew the resistors across the caps trick. ReVox used to do that too once.
I also do that when I put two PSU electolytics is series in my valve amps - which are very quiet by the way :p

Obvs that's for a completely different reason though.... to make the caps in series share the voltage across them equally.
 
Wow it's hilarious to see my old adage that nobody knows less about hi fi than hi fi enthusiasts proven so thoroughly:D:rolleyes:

The only power amps that don't make a thump of some sort on switch on are valve ones. ALL other types can do. Most pre amps also do it hence the mantra of switch power amp on last and off first. Some valve pre amps make a switch on thump that could destroy the SS power amp they may be connected to and these almost always have a protection relay at the output.

no noise through my ESLs when I power up my SE hybrid GM75 monos…but there is a noticeable WHUMP noise as the apartment lights dim and it charges up…I increased the resettable mains fuse for that rail to stop it tripping (for my sins!) on a regular basis :)
 
no noise through my ESLs when I power up my SE hybrid GM75 monos…but there is a noticeable WHUMP noise as the apartment lights dim and it charges up…I increased the resettable mains fuse for that rail to stop it tripping (for my sins!) on a regular basis :)

Obviously valve power amps don't do it as they warm up so slowly...

There may be a very few that have circuitry that takes longer to charge up and settle than it takes for the valves to warm up and then it could be possible but I can't think of an example.
 
I'm beginning to think that Jez doesn't have much understanding of power amplifier design outside of his very narrow and yesteryear designs. Hence the abusive responses - he is out of his depth. He doesn't seem to see beyond the simple circuits from decades ago that he can manipulate/tweak with modern circuit simulators. I think he is for some reason trapped in the past.

The NAP 250 and 135s are based on an old 1980s transistor manufacturers circuit. I think the mains xformer is around 500VA this and the associated poorly designed power supply causes a power surge at switch on that lowers the voltage of my ring main such that as mentioned previously the table lamps dim. In the Meridian amp there are two 1.2KVA mains transformers as it is actually built as two mono blocks within the same chassis so a total of 2.4KVA and associated power supplies. The Meridian doesn't have a power on surge and the table lamps don't dim at switch on. The Naim 0.5KVA xformer and power supply dims the lamps the Meridian 2.4KV doesn't. Which is the better design?

The Naim amps 'thump' the speakers at switch on whilst the Meridian is silent. Which is the better design?

If you accidentally switch on a preamp or other front end that connects into a Naim power amp that is already switched on you'll get an almighty click/thump that may damage your speakers. With the Meridian you might get a tiny click before it goes into safe mode and no chance of damaging your speakers. Which is the better design?

The NAP 250 can deliver 80Wpc into 8 Ohms and has all the above problems whilst the Meridian can output 300Wpc into the same load or 1500W bridged into 4 Ohm and doesn't have any of the above problems. Which is the better design?

Oh and Naim pre/power combo hissssessss and may get radio breakthrough (I did) whilst the Meridian is so far as I can tell completely silent. Which is the better design?

I have only used Naim as an example as I have personally owned the NAP 250 and 135s (and both at the same time) however I am sure that the majority of power amps behave in a similar fashion including those that Jez 'designs' or so he says as no one has (I believe) ever heard one except Jez.

So no! Solid state power amplifiers don't have to make a thump at switch on if properly designed and its not bleeding edge technology either as the Meridian amp was designed 20 or so years ago.

Good fun no?

Duck!

DV
 
I'm beginning to think that Jez doesn't have much understanding of power amplifier design outside of his very narrow and yesteryear designs. Hence the abusive responses - he is out of his depth. He doesn't seem to see beyond the simple circuits from decades ago that he can manipulate/tweak with modern circuit simulators. I think he is for some reason trapped in the past.

The NAP 250 and 135s are based on an old 1980s transistor manufacturers circuit. I think the mains xformer is around 500VA this and the associated poorly designed power supply causes a power surge at switch on that lowers the voltage of my ring main such that as mentioned previously the table lamps dim. In the Meridian amp there are two 1.2KVA mains transformers as it is actually built as two mono blocks within the same chassis so a total of 2.4KVA and associated power supplies. The Meridian doesn't have a power on surge and the table lamps don't dim at switch on. The Naim 0.5KVA xformer and power supply dims the lamps the Meridian 2.4KV doesn't. Which is the better design?

The Naim amps 'thump' the speakers at switch on whilst the Meridian is silent. Which is the better design?

If you accidentally switch on a preamp or other front end that connects into a Naim power amp that is already switched on you'll get an almighty click/thump that may damage your speakers. With the Meridian you might get a tiny click before it goes into safe mode and no chance of damaging your speakers. Which is the better design?

The NAP 250 can deliver 80Wpc into 8 Ohms and has all the above problems whilst the Meridian can output 300Wpc into the same load or 1500W bridged into 4 Ohm and doesn't have any of the above problems. Which is the better design?

Oh and Naim pre/power combo hissssessss and may get radio breakthrough (I did) whilst the Meridian is so far as I can tell completely silent. Which is the better design?

I have only used Naim as an example as I have personally owned the NAP 250 and 135s (and both at the same time) however I am sure that the majority of power amps behave in a similar fashion including those that Jez 'designs' or so he says as no one has (I believe) ever heard one except Jez.

So no! Solid state power amplifiers don't have to make a thump at switch on if properly designed and its not bleeding edge technology either as the Meridian amp was designed 20 or so years ago.

Good fun no?

Duck!

DV

Do you get special toilet paper for wiping your elbow?:D
 
I'm beginning to think that Jez doesn't have much understanding of power amplifier design outside of his very narrow and yesteryear designs. Hence the abusive responses - he is out of his depth. He doesn't seem to see beyond the simple circuits from decades ago that he can manipulate/tweak with modern circuit simulators. I think he is for some reason trapped in the past.

The NAP 250 and 135s are based on an old 1980s transistor manufacturers circuit. I think the mains xformer is around 500VA this and the associated poorly designed power supply causes a power surge at switch on that lowers the voltage of my ring main such that as mentioned previously the table lamps dim. In the Meridian amp there are two 1.2KVA mains transformers as it is actually built as two mono blocks within the same chassis so a total of 2.4KVA and associated power supplies. The Meridian doesn't have a power on surge and the table lamps don't dim at switch on. The Naim 0.5KVA xformer and power supply dims the lamps the Meridian 2.4KV doesn't. Which is the better design?

The Naim amps 'thump' the speakers at switch on whilst the Meridian is silent. Which is the better design?

If you accidentally switch on a preamp or other front end that connects into a Naim power amp that is already switched on you'll get an almighty click/thump that may damage your speakers. With the Meridian you might get a tiny click before it goes into safe mode and no chance of damaging your speakers. Which is the better design?

The NAP 250 can deliver 80Wpc into 8 Ohms and has all the above problems whilst the Meridian can output 300Wpc into the same load or 1500W bridged into 4 Ohm and doesn't have any of the above problems. Which is the better design?

Oh and Naim pre/power combo hissssessss and may get radio breakthrough (I did) whilst the Meridian is so far as I can tell completely silent. Which is the better design?

I have only used Naim as an example as I have personally owned the NAP 250 and 135s (and both at the same time) however I am sure that the majority of power amps behave in a similar fashion including those that Jez 'designs' or so he says as no one has (I believe) ever heard one except Jez.

So no! Solid state power amplifiers don't have to make a thump at switch on if properly designed and its not bleeding edge technology either as the Meridian amp was designed 20 or so years ago.

Good fun no?

Duck!

DV

The light dimming problem is different to the switch on thump problem, the light dimming problem is caused by the surge current to magnetise the core in the transformer if the voltage is switched on at on or near the peak of the mains waveform and is easily got round by using a zero threshold detector so as when the power is switched on, power is applied to the transformer at around zero volts on the waveform. Switch on thump is something different, unless an amp is spectacular badly designed, BTW you seem to be stalking the conference at the moment looking to prove what a clever clogs you are at every opportunity and failing, it might be a better idea to stop it or go to a conference where people are easily impressed, somewhere like an anti-vax movement conference might better suit your needs.
 
Out of dozens of solid state amps I've owned and built over the years, most have been fine apart from Naim and Exposure.

If the noise is annoying then just buy an amp with a delayed output at switch on, or fit a UPC1237 type circuit or similar.
 


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