flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Run out of time today but I will give a full build and listening report when I have chance.
60's & 70's amplifiers
- Thread starter Patcam
- Start date
beammeup
pfm Member
Robert - if you look on that chaps site he doesn't much like the beloved Quad 405 - to cut and paste his comment: Very bad IC designed nightmare... Hugely overrated multiple IC riddled rubbish. The 405 power amp remarkably has an op-amp 75p piece of lo-fi crap on all the input boards. Oh, but the preamp has loads more lovely ICs to mangle the sound further. One seller kindly photos the preamp insides showing an odd mix of 1960s style boards with 4x 14 pin ICs and even worse the pre-tone has at least 3 more op-amps. Utter utter crap. How this junk is touted as Best Of British Hifi shows how awful the majority of British Transistor Hifi is
I think the point is getting the best Sound Quality rather than being concerned about its re-sale value. If buying a £70 vintage amp then servicing it for £350 give the very best musical experience then perhaps that should be considered as the ultimate goal rather than how much it's worth - this isn't the Antiques Road Show. Yes the Quad 405 for example has a great re-sale value, but it seems there's a LOT wrong with it
. But of course it's classic British - so it "must" be good surely ....?
Tony L
Administrator
The strange thing about the Quad 405 is everyone reckons they are horrible, yet they sound fine driving both types Quad ESLs, which are arguably the most accurate and revealing loudspeaker ever made! If you really want to hear what's upstream a pair of ESLs is as good a way as any.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Robert - if you look on that chaps site he doesn't much like the beloved Quad 405 - to cut and paste his comment: Very bad IC designed nightmare... Hugely overrated multiple IC riddled rubbish. The 405 power amp remarkably has an op-amp 75p piece of lo-fi crap on all the input boards. Oh, but the preamp has loads more lovely ICs to mangle the sound further. One seller kindly photos the preamp insides showing an odd mix of 1960s style boards with 4x 14 pin ICs and even worse the pre-tone has at least 3 more op-amps. Utter utter crap. How this junk is touted as Best Of British Hifi shows how awful the majority of British Transistor Hifi is
I think the point is getting the best Sound Quality rather than being concerned about its resale value. If buying a £30 vintage amp then servicing it for £350 give the very best musical experience then perhaps that should be considered. Yes the Quad 405 has a great re-sale value, but it seems there's a LOT wrong with it
I don't know where you got that quote from but he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about! The 405 is a very good amp with just a few simple mods to it and the current dumping topology is one of the most original designs even after all these years. I'd take a 405 with simple mods over a NAP250 any day of the week!
Some people do indeed not mind paying the price to have an old amp properly fettled, especially if it's something they plan on keeping long term. If an old amp is bought for £50 and another £350+ spent on refurbishing then one may well have an amp that would cost £1000 to match in a modern amp.
The problem is the dreaded "box swappers".... I've known a few of them over the years... strange types... everything is the best they ever heard and yet is sold and replaced by something else within a month in some cases. They usually buy stuff with a keen eye on what they'll get back for it when they sell it!
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
As I said above I reckon a 405 with a few mods will beat all sorts of expensive kit. I've used them myself in the past with the protection circuitry removed, better op amps and various other mods and found that in this form it's excellent....
beammeup
pfm Member
The full list is found indexed here: http://select45rpm.com/pages/hifi/other-amps.html - find the Quad in the list then read the comments.
..match a modern amp! I get the impression from that site that you don't want to be matching "modern" amps at all! Instead you'll be greatly exceeding a modern amp!
Yes, box swappers are never happy. I think in this hobby it's a disease.
Beobloke
pfm Member
My my, he does have some interesting opinions on items he's never encountered, doesn't he?!
My eye was caught by the bit on the B&O Beolab 5000 amplifier where he opines "We assume the sound is not dissimilar to the Beomaster 3000...". Er...then you assume wrongly - it's a very different sounding beast!
Apologies for the thread drift - as you were...
Robert
Tapehead
Indeed.
The only worthwhile mod is a sensitivity reduction, one useful side effect being a drop in hiss which is useful for sensitive 'speakers. Most people want a 'better' op amp fitted, but better at what?
The Mk1 can have its protection adjusted broadly in line with the Mk2 if required. Useful for sub 5 ohm loads.
The rest is a waste of time.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Tony L
Administrator
That Select45 guy seems remarkably opinionated and to have very little grasp of the classic audio market. Anyone who blanket dismisses things like the Leak Stereo 20, Quad II, 303, 405, Radford STA15, McIntosh etc has to have an agenda. I suspect that agenda is in buying-in kit very cheaply to restore and sell on at a high price, which is not something one would ever be able to do with any of the items I listed as they are far too popular to be found for buttons!
joel
Painter of Dragons, Maker of Mirrors
Just sometimes I wish there was a like button on here...
John
Rack’em Up!
In my market during the late 70's and 80's, Naim gained prominence riding on the backs of those aforementioned products.
Tony L
Administrator
Speaker design started moving slowly backwards in the late 70s and 80s with increasingly smaller, less efficient and lower impedance designs arriving. Driving sub 4 ohms really isn't a Quad 303 or 405's strong suite at all, whereas Naim's class B designs really seem to like being made to work a bit into such a load so had their moment in the sun. In the years since, and with the internet to cut through the dealer/magazine hype, I feel most things are now finding their correct context and those who appreciate them for what they do well. My own view is certainly that almost all quality audio from all periods has value and I can appreciate a full Quad system, a classic Linn/Naim rig and pretty much everything in between.
Tony L
Administrator
I'd heard the little Nait was meant to be good with Quads, though I thought none of them were especially safe with 63s as the Naims can't deal with the protection system and had a tendency to blow up!
John
Rack’em Up!
There seems to be quite a number of folks on the Naim forum using all variety of Naim amps with 57's and 63's without issues.
beammeup
pfm Member
Maybe - maybe not. He seems to have the technical nonce to backup his claims - or he may have an agenda as suggested earlier - I'm none the wiser to be honest. But it does open up a train of thought to be open minded in these matters and not to perhaps expect British amps to be superior to Jap amps (Quad vs Yamaha for example). It's not sexy or patriotic I know, but it may be 'fact'...
..the proof is in the pudding and I would need the opportunity to try one of his rated EXCELLENT vintage amps to find out for myself. I intend to do so but I'm not going to rush.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Really???