5-10k ish Speakers

[fishnchips]

Eight 8 inch cones will probably still be quicker than two 16 inch cones.

Indeed, for the same reason that a kite is faster than an F16.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Which ever way its argued, my 9"s makes the sofa I'm sitting on right now tremble .

 

[James]

Forget the physics; the real clue in how quick a driver sounds is its voltage sensitivity. This is largely determined by three things.

Motor force product (BL) * Radiating area (Sd) / Moving mass (mms) = Gamma

The 8" Scan-speak I referred to earlier has a Gamma value of 60 and a voltage sensitivity of 86dB/2.83V

The 15" ATC SB75-375SC has a Gamma value of 127 and a voltage sensitivity of 91dB/2.83V

The 31" Fostex FW800HS has a Gamma value of 198 and a voltage sensitivity of 96dB/2.83V

If this doesn't show that, in general, larger drivers are quicker, more dynamic and effortless, I don't know what will, and I will graciously withdraw from this debate and go to bed. It's nigh nighs sleepy byeing times for antipodean fishes.

 

[Joe P]

If smaller cones are better for transient response why not take the concept to an extreme — e.g., 15 4-inch drivers or 25 3-inch drivers or whatever combination of small drivers equals the cone area of a single 15-inch driver?

Joe

 

[Markus S]

It's been done. The arrangement makes sense if you go for a line source in the bass, which is a vaild approach.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Why all the number crunching, we don't listen to drivers in open baffles. The cabinet design and construction can be much more Influential to the output. As mentioned if a good driver is used within or below its optimal working environment, then there can be many ways found to reproduce realistic levels and more importantly, realistic quality.

 

[Cereal Killer]

I keep going back to my reference, the Deltas l own. I've just had plastikman, mind in rewind playing at very very loud levels, so loud infact my vision was moving with the B-lines and the air being moved felt like id just switch on a desk fan...... All from a 9" bass driver AND..... Its cabinet ports.

PS and it never flapped out of control once. I'm sitting 3.3m away from them.

 

[Interzone]

It's not an ungrounded assumption. Most 8" woofers have a moving mass of between 30-50g. Here is a Scan-speak 8" woofer with 37g.

A typical 15" woofer is represented by the ATC SB375 range. They have moving mass ranging from 78 to 95g.

I don't make up stuff.

Apologies, assumption was the wrong word. Statement would have been more appropriate. I thought you meant just the cone material. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Markus S]

I keep going back to my reference, the Deltas l own.

We've noticed.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Honestly...... Well I wouldn't want be using one that was purely theoretical now would I.

 

[jaspert]

I'm surprised you'd need to split it that many times, I'd have thought a three-way was the ideal, e.g. 15" bass, 6.5" mid, tweeter. Alternately 15" bass, 3 or 4" compression driver, tweeter.

I'm constantly amazed / baffled by how well 15" Tannoys actually work, a two-way of that size should sound dreadful, but for some reason they don't at all. I've recently taken a (rather misguided) break with two smaller speakers famed for their midband (SHL5 & Tab Ref 8 Sig), and I prefer the big old Golds in this area. To my ears a sax, voice piano or whatever is just far more real and present. It sounds more like reality to me. I'd love to hear some big two-way Altecs at some point, i.e. see what the same recipe sounds like with a more substantial horn (albeit losing that wonderful point source).

Tony.

I had the pleasure of listening to these 2 speakers over an evening ( same owners) recently.

Tannoy Westminster Royal (home)

Avantgarde Audio Trio ( Studio)

The AG Audio Trio was powered by a full Kondo pre/power setup while the Big Westminster Royal was powered by cheap Quad 33/303.

In some ways the Tannoy is more impressive, more coherent, more life like. Both loaded the big rooms well, very dynamic and exciting to listen. The Trio gives a larger than life size and the imaging is not as good.


Going back to the drivers size, I had a brief trial with a good active 4 way floor stander with 4 small 6' woofers per side for a week but my current high efficiency 15 inch woofers ( active 4 way horn based setup) crapped over the former in effortless subjective bass punch, speed and dynamic. The former strained while the later did it with ease.

 

[martin clark]

Jaspert - now that looks like fun. Nice post!

 

[Eric L]

jaspert,

I've done roughly similar comparisons at home with AG Duos and Tannoy DMT 215s, albeit at different times. I reached similar conclusions to yours; the AGs have a bigger soundstage and a greater "wow-factor". Completely agree that the Tannoys are more coherent and have better imaging though.

 

[Joe P]

Now that would be a fun comparison.

Not the big Tannoys are within reach for me, but aren't the Avantgarde horns aimed at people who find Westminsters inexpensive?

Joe

 

[jaspert]

The lucky owner used some car analogy to describe them. AG Trio is like a "Ferrari" while the Westminster is like a fast " Bentley".
Both are too $$ for me too so that's why I'm going DIY horn.

It was a fun interstate hi-fi and food trip with a few mates. Heard another impressive setup with Avantgarde Duo Omega with Audionote gears ,some stacked Quad, Sonus Faber Stradivarius, new Wilson Sasha on the same trip. The big Tannoy was one of the best sound.

 

[Markus S]

woo. Some trip. How did you like the Sashas?

 

[Tony L]

Superb, a lot of kit I'd love to hear there.

Tony.

PS Westminsters are frickin' huge!

 

[jaspert]

woo. Some trip. How did you like the Sashas?

First exposure to Wilson Audio and the system ( one of 6moons reviewers' setup) was really impressive with very good imaging, highly resolving and refined. Tight bass too. The other guys with me who used to dislike the older Watt/Puppy changed their minds afterwards.

 

[NeilR]

Also diaphragms store elastic energy in the suspension. Push a bass cone in a little and you will see that it returns to its equilibrium position at a rate determined mostly by its natural frequency. The elastic energy stored is a function of cone displacement, but also of circumference. Circumference increases linearly with diameter, whereas area increases with the square of the diameter. Consequently smaller cones will usually experience a stronger returning force per unit of area.

Another contributing factor may be the fact that cones have natural resonant frequencies which inevitably add a colouration. Bigger cones have lower resonant frequencies, as you can hear by tapping them, and so will normally introduce a deeper, and therefore slower (longer wavelength) quality of mushiness. Again, you can often see this by watching how long it takes a cone to return to stasis after you poke it in a bit. Generally smaller cones return more quickly. Four of them will still return more quickly than an equivalent area single unit.

Most of the discussion on this thread seems to envisage what in physics would be termed an 'ideal' speaker. Your big cone speakers aren't perfect no matter how much time you spend licking them.

The Force is strong in this one, Luke.

 

[Cereal Killer]

For a moment I thought it said Farce ....