lordsummit
Moderator
Natara is having a holiday from this thread.
3rd edition of Floyd E. Toole's "Sound Reproduction"
- Thread starter Julf
- Start date
tuga
Legal Alien
Thanks for the link, made me look up formant (nice info here and here).
The chart I posted shows a fundamentals range between E2 / 87.31Hz and E6 / 1319Hz and according to the Wikipedia the lowest note produced by a male singer is an even lower C2 / 65Hz, with Oktavist diving as low as C1 32.70Hz.
I imagine that this band is shown in the site you linked as ranging between 200 and 1000Hz, but it shows another range higher up between 2 and 4KHz that is composed of formants.
singing formant - high energy at 2.5 to 3.0kHz - to predominate even a loud orchestra
cooky1257
pfm Member
We know this but the graphs aren't just frequency response are they?-they also(assuming you actually followed the lecture) give us a good indication of in room behaviour too. You claim the bass is operating out of band and would need heavy eq but nope.
So you don't think a 2-way topology isn't the right choice but then your technical expertise is what, in comparison to the transducer and systems designers at JBL exactly?
What is the state of the art at the moment re transducer performance?
Here's a link with all the Klippel data for the 2216-nd http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33565-2216Nd
And you signally fail to highlight areas where the speaker is falling short or substantiate your ridiculous 'not for performance' claim. Produce evidence or I call it trolling.
tuga
Legal Alien
I have listed several shortcomings.
It would help to look at a few more measurements but strangely JBL didn't publish the usual set as per LSR6332 specs sheet.
These would show things like possible bad behavior/resonances in drivers and distortion.
I'm sure I would never be able to produce enough evidence to change your mind.
To quote Carl Sagan "You can't convince a believer of anything"
cooky1257
pfm Member
No you've posted vague hifi forum lore/opinion, and 'rules' that are out of date ignoring the current state of play in network/transducer design, runs counter to some very well established and respected TOTL 2-way+ designs-again that's not evidence. Posting diagrams of musical instrument bandwidths isn't evidence either.
tuga
Legal Alien
No point in arquing with a fanboy.
tuga
Legal Alien
Found some measurements: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...erence-Monitor&p=380278&viewfull=1#post380278
cooky1257
pfm Member
Good aren’t they ? I was very tempted to join Pos(Thomas) and go for the diy version but am happy with my 9800Be clones. Though suspect a 2216-nd may be on the cards.
tuga
Legal Alien
Well the THD measurements at 115dB are worthless...10% below 300Hz is very high but who listens at 115dB anyway?
The IMD+THD measurement is a bit cryptic thus again of little worth.
but
THD is higher in a 2-way:
Neumann 0 419 (3-way)
THD @ 95dB ~0.1% above 500Hz, 1% @ 50Hz, 0.1% @ 200Hz
Neumann KH 120 (2-way)
THD @ 95dB ~0.3% above 500Hz, 10% @ 50Hz, 0.3% @ 200Hz
&
IMD is higher in a 2-way:
Neumann 0 419 (3-way)
Neumann KH 120 (2-way)
http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neumann-kh/glossary.nsf/root/F77C48111116FFBDC12578B20039968C
http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neum...9025D8C4F126AD8C12578B2003A71E9?Open&term=TIM
Tony L
Administrator
Is that always the case? I can understand it in a tiny little two-way mini-monitor like the KH-120 where the bass driver has to really bob in and out to generate any bass, but what about an Altec VOTT, 15” Tannoy, Quad ESL etc where driver excursion is absolutely minimal at any sensible level?
cooky1257
pfm Member
Well the THD measurements at 115dB are worthless...10% below 300Hz is very high but who listens at 115dB anyway?
The IMD+THD measurement is a bit cryptic thus again of little worth.
but
THD is higher in a 2-way:
Neumann 0 419 (3-way)
THD @ 95dB ~0.1% above 500Hz, 1% @ 50Hz, 0.1% @ 200Hz
Neumann KH 120 (2-way)
THD @ 95dB ~0.3% above 500Hz, 10% @ 50Hz, 0.3% @ 200Hz
&
IMD is higher in a 2-way:
Neumann 0 419 (3-way)
Neumann KH 120 (2-way)
http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neumann-kh/glossary.nsf/root/F77C48111116FFBDC12578B20039968C
http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neum...9025D8C4F126AD8C12578B2003A71E9?Open&term=TIM
I suggest you digest the contents of the Neumann articles tbh.Well the THD measurements at 115dB are worthless...10% below 300Hz is very high but who listens at 115dB anyway?
The IMD+THD measurement is a bit cryptic thus again of little worth.
but
THD is higher in a 2-way:
Neumann 0 419 (3-way)
THD @ 95dB ~0.1% above 500Hz, 1% @ 50Hz, 0.1% @ 200Hz
Neumann KH 120 (2-way)
THD @ 95dB ~0.3% above 500Hz, 10% @ 50Hz, 0.3% @ 200Hz
&
IMD is higher in a 2-way:
Neumann 0 419 (3-way)
Neumann KH 120 (2-way)
http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neumann-kh/glossary.nsf/root/F77C48111116FFBDC12578B20039968C
http://www.neumann-kh-line.com/neum...9025D8C4F126AD8C12578B2003A71E9?Open&term=TIM
tuga
Legal Alien
Should I have them with tea?
tuga
Legal Alien
If I understand correctly the reason for more IMD is due to having one sole driver covering a wide range of frequencies. Single driver speakers are the worst performers, which is why their owners live on a diet of jazz trios and girls with banjos.
martin clark
pinko bodger
NB ESLs work in a fundamentally different way; as pressure sources, not volume-velocity, and as such, if %thd and linearity is what you care about - you might want to look again at these 'single drivers'. Hint - they play anything well.
tuga
Legal Alien
Anything that doesn't have low frequency content. (certainly not the CLXs I listened to driven by Pass amplification)
But we were/are discussing direct radiation box speakers.
martin clark
pinko bodger
'Anything that doesn't have low frequency content.' Not true, at all.
tuga
Legal Alien
You are right, I was just being cheeky.
But you just can't beat nature and ESLs struggle with both low frequency reproduction and high sound pressure levels.
cooky1257
pfm Member
Yes, if you had you would have read the following;
"Intermodulation distortion is non-linear with level, in that an increase of 10 dB in the test signal typically results in a far greater increase in level in the intermodulation distortion. As a result one should check the test conditions before comparing measurements of different loudspeakers. In general, larger loudspeakers suffer from less intermodulation distortion than smaller loudspeakers when played at the same level. Additionally, three-way loudspeakers will suffer from less intermodulation distortion than two-way loudspeakers as each driver has less work to do.
And;
Ideally the lower the harmonic distortion, the cleaner, or more transparent, the loudspeaker will sound. Less than -30 dB (3%) at low frequency and less than -40 dB (1%) at mid-high frequencies is normally considered to be good, lower values than these is of course better.
Harmonic distortion is non-linear with level, in that an increase of 10 dB in the test signal typically results in a far greater increase in the level of harmonic distortion. As a result, one should check the test conditions before comparing measurements of different loudspeakers. In general, larger loudspeakers suffer from less harmonic distortion than smaller loudspeakers when played at the same level. Additionally, three-way loudspeakers will suffer from less harmonic distortion than two-way loudspeakers as each driver has less work to do. Both these effects can be seen together in the two examples below which are tested at the same sound pressure level.
Comparing a large 3-way with a bookshelf 2 way at 95 dB to illustrate the merits of a mid driver is a bit cheeky tbh. That 3 way you show has 10% harmonic distortion at 50hz at 95dB(it goes with the territory) the 10% below 300hz M2 is measured at 115dB.
So 2 ways of skinning the cat; the converse of the 'non linear nature' statement in bold must also be true so.....a decrease of 20dB in the test signal results in a far greater decrease in the level of IMD, and a decrease of 20 dB in the test signal results in a far greater decrease in the level of harmonic distortion.
tuga
Legal Alien
Far greater is not very objective is it? This is why we need measurements, but measurements that are actually meaningful and conventional like those provided for the LSR6332.
Which makes me wonder why JBL doesn't provide them with the M2 specs sheet; even the specs are comparably vague.
Perhaps pros have become as gullible as audiophiles and all they need are a couple of videos of some "respected" characters babbling about how good the M2s are in exchange for a free pair or two...
If you'd read what I wrote you'd have seen my comments regarding the uselessness of measuring THD at 115dB. I don't doubt that the M2 produces lower THD at 95dB but you missed the point about 3-way producing less harmonic distortion than 2-way and the point about a 4-wayv producing less IM distortion than a 3-way which produces less IMD than a 2-way.
It doesn't make sense to compare these small monitors from Neumann with the M2. I used their measurements to substantiate my criticism of the M2 topology (even though I knew that you wouldn't change your beliefs)...
By the way, the Neumann 3-way measurements show -40dB @ 50Hz which is not 0.1% but 1%THD. (Corrected)
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Well, if the two input frequencies are given to different drivers, then you can avoid IMD being generated by either of them. So in that sense you are absolutely correct. 8-]
However when two frequencies are given to a single driver unit the IMD tends to come from two mechanisms. One is the movement nonlinearity (mechanical and magnetic). The other is doppler effect. Both are generally very level dependent and rise rapidly with output level. For a given output level both also rise rapidly with *decreasing* driver size, all else being equal.
So it comes down to a matter of the design of the drivers. Not just how many you have.
The ESL is a curious case because it is a phased array and in effect the driver size varies with frequency. (Thats why the directtivity stays fairly uniform over a fair range of frequencies.) Being large with a linear drive force helps keep down IMD. But doppler is inevitable if you are using a moving 'piston' to push the air, simply because the piston is moving. Just that when it is large the movement can be small.