15 minute cities

[KrisW]

I’d like to remind people that the opposite of “car dependent” is not “car free”. The goal is to provide urban and suburban environments that do not require car travel for everyday activities. In no way whatsoever does that mean that people will be prohibited from driving, or can’t have a van, or any of the other bullshit claims the conspiracist gobshites are peddling on social media. If anything, for people who really need to drive (the elderly, tradesmen, disabled, etc.. all the “but-what-about”s, basically), these schemes will make their life easier by removing all the other drivers who don’t actually need to be in a car.

But I think a lot of people in towns and cities have got used to driving to places and don’t consider that there could be closer, quicker options if they chose a different mode of travel: 15 minutes is actually a fair distance on foot, and on a bike it covers a bigger area than most towns. I live in an inner suburb of a city of around 150,000 people. 25 minutes will take me to the main street of the city centre, so I’ve got a lot within my own 15 minute radius. If I had a bike, 15 minutes pretty much covers the entire city, bar some satellite suburbs. So, without any effort from the city planners (and trust me, they make no effort), I am in a “15 minute neighbourhood”̦.

Here’s a handy online tool to see what you’ve got within 15 minutes of where you live: https://app.traveltime.com/ The walking times it uses are for a fairly leisurely walker: I can reach its “25 minute” radius in about 20 minutes.

 

[Martin J]

I recently went to Centre Parcs for a weekend and have to say I love cycling around while the cars are prohibited from the main site. With lodges spaciously laid out in woodland you can’t help wondering if you could live like that full time.

However, I don’t think you can for many reasons and I certainly don’t think it should be imposed on existing areas by effectively blocking roads (I know it’s done with cameras and fines). It strikes me as authoritarianism and a loss of basic freedom I.e a step backwards.

 

[Bananahead]

I never use my car during the week (Maybe twice each year to collect something heavy). I even walk to work every day.

 

[Anh]

Here you go - a map reference for you:
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1789239,-0.5973989,17z

All new build developed over the last decade across the other side of Lincoln from where I live.
I count 4 playgrounds, 1 substantial school, a library/community hub, a fair sized Coop, a cafe - even an Amazon locker

About a 20 min walk down Mill Lane off the map to the right is a decent family friendly pub, a bakery, another Coop, an optician, a medical centre, a garden centre/toolshop/repair shop/DIY needs

... within that walking distance the other way, as is another pub and a Coop. A little bit further is ASDA, another medical centre, two substantial schools, and more ... there was a brassiere shop, but that closed down so look elsewhere for uplift

Hmm, not quite what I had in mind ... this looks like any other small town (located outside of a larger town) with some new build properties and local amenities. The larger establishments such as ASDA only exists there because it serves a nearby city.

I am not convinced of the notion of not having to leave town by car is at all sustainable with this example.

 

[miktec]

Hmm, not quite what I had in mind ... this looks like any other small town (located outside of a larger town) with some new build properties and local amenities. The larger establishments such as ASDA only exists there because it serves a nearby city.

I am not convinced of the notion of not having to leave town by car is at all sustainable with this example.

I think you need to consider the option a little more carefully before dismissing it so glibly - this is a 'small town' in name only, it is in fact a sizeable new build suburb attached to, and a welded on part of, a larger city. For all intents and purposes it is simply part of the building flow from the city centre outwards.
In that same greater city area there are other new expansions (to all points of the compass) following similar lines with similar stipulations built into the planning process, whether locally or at City/County level.

I'm afraid you are coming across as more than a tad blinkered.

 

[miktec]

However, I don’t think you can for many reasons and I certainly don’t think it should be imposed on existing areas by effectively blocking roads (I know it’s done with cameras and fines). It strikes me as authoritarianism and a loss of basic freedom I.e a step backwards.

I don't think anyone is doing that (except where streets have already been pedestrianised yonks ago)

If you look at the Oxford Council proposals linked to above they are simply trying to limit the number and frequency of vehicles entering the City Centre - seems very reasonable to me and not the slightest whiff of 'authoritarianism'. Even if they did block access altogether - so what?

How else would you propose to deal with the very real problem of how intense pollution is actually destroying the very fabric of much of our heritage building stock (including our Cathedrals, for instance) let alone the damage to health incurred by those living and/or working in those areas?

 

[Weekender]

Six miles to my office in central MCR. By bike I did it in 18:32 once but it nearly killed me; usually more like 23mins. The train is about 12mins but usually doesn't turn up or is full.

 

[paulbysea]

Bikes are brilliant for this but only when the weather's reasonable. I have small shops nearby, but Asda/Morrison/Aldi/M&S are all a mile away. That's a bit of a walk, but a bike takes 5 minutes. If you allow 20 minutes as a reasonable travel time, a bike will get you 3-4 miles.

I agree, I cycle a fair amount, though to be honest I would likely walk if only going a mile to a shop as by the time I get the bike out the garage and lock it up at the other end, it is just as quick to walk.

 

[Woodface]

If you think back to the 70s, when I was a kid, lived in Scarborough. My mum used to walk to the local greengrocer, butcher etc. Supermarkets increased in prevalence, people decided that they needed a car to shop, my dad used to cycle to work & stopped when he bought a car.

Cars have changed our behaviour, did we used to starve before the days of mass ownership? We have become lazy IMV.

 

[kevinrt]

Oxford does have another scheme in progress at present, Low Traffic Neighbourhoods (LTNs).
In areas where they are in place some roads have been blocked with planters and bollards to prevent cars using them. Some bus routes are barred to cars and have cameras to catch car drivers ignoring the restriction.
Part of the same overall idea of making people rethink taking the car.

Kevin

 

[Woodface]

Six miles to my office in central MCR. By bike I did it in 18:32 once but it nearly killed me; usually more like 23mins. The train is about 12mins but usually doesn't turn up or is full.

How long does 6 miles take in the car during rush hour. IME in Manchester it can be 40 minutes plus.

 

[Anh]

I’d like to remind people that the opposite of “car dependent” is not “car free”. The goal is to provide urban and suburban environments that do not require car travel for everyday activities. In no way whatsoever does that mean that people will be prohibited from driving, or can’t have a van, or any of the other bullshit claims the conspiracist gobshites are peddling on social media. If anything, for people who really need to drive (the elderly, tradesmen, disabled, etc.. all the “but-what-about”s, basically), these schemes will make their life easier by removing all the other drivers who don’t actually need to be in a car.

But I think a lot of people in towns and cities have got used to driving to places and don’t consider that there could be closer, quicker options if they chose a different mode of travel: 15 minutes is actually a fair distance on foot, and on a bike it covers a bigger area than most towns. I live in an inner suburb of a city of around 150,000 people. 25 minutes will take me to the main street of the city centre, so I’ve got a lot within my own 15 minute radius. If I had a bike, 15 minutes pretty much covers the entire city, bar some satellite suburbs. So, without any effort from the city planners (and trust me, they make no effort), I am in a “15 minute neighbourhood”̦.

Here’s a handy online tool to see what you’ve got within 15 minutes of where you live: https://app.traveltime.com/ The walking times it uses are for a fairly leisurely walker: I can reach its “25 minute” radius in about 20 minutes.

I work from home and that has made me seriously consider being car free a year ago ... I did the sums / cost-benefit analysis however it would have been financially punishing ...

For example, a mere 1-bed property within an affluent/gentrified area costs and arm and a leg. But you do have access to nice establishments and well kept places of interest & services in close proximity, coupled with easy distance & access to frequently run public transport (Train/Tube & Uber) SHOULD I deem walking to be unsafe, too cold/unpleasant or I need to leave town. This puts me in direct competition with privileged 30-something professionals armed with sizable (augmented by the bank of mummy & daddy) deposits and artisan cakes to bribe the vendor, and having to deal with snotty London estate agents ...

If I was lucky to secure a home in such a locale, my mortgage would be at max LTV, incurring a higher interest rate on a higher loan balance, think of an extra £300-£400 p/m in interest payments alone in addition to £150-£200 p/m service charges and ground rent.

Factor in the cost of train fares and (average of twice weekly 10 minute taxi rides to and from a given POI) over a year, this far exceeds what would have been my annual fuel cost, road tax, insurance, upkeep and depreciation of a modern premium petrol car let alone an economical one.

On another note, I wouldn't want to face the likelyhood of listening to the cackling and bellowing of local middle class drunkards by virtue of being within 15 minutes from a pub or wine bar Monday to Saturday...

 

[Weekender]

How long does 6 miles take in the car during rush hour. IME in Manchester it can be 40 minutes plus.

That sounds about right...bike definitely quicker...bike lanes are terrible or non-existant (making the route dangerous to inexperienced cyclists) on the Urmston-Trafford-Mcr route though.
(I'm retired).

 

[Woodface]

That sounds about right...bike definitely quicker...bike lanes are terrible or non-existant (making the route dangerous to inexperienced cyclists) on the Urmston-Trafford-Mcr route though.
(I'm retired).

I think Manchester is trying with the bike lanes but it not a pleasant experience. I used to travel weekly into Manchester from Sheffield & it was impossible in rush hour to get to the office before 9 without setting off at 6 in the morning.

 

[Anh]

I think you need to consider the option a little more carefully before dismissing it so glibly - this is a 'small town' in name only, it is in fact a sizeable new build suburb attached to, and a welded on part of, a larger city. For all intents and purposes it is simply part of the building flow from the city centre outwards.
In that same greater city area there are other new expansions (to all points of the compass) following similar lines with similar stipulations built into the planning process, whether locally or at City/County level.

I'm afraid you are coming across as more than a tad blinkered.

You're taking it the wrong way, I live in a small village, I use the term small because relatively it is.

That being said, nothing about your town demonstrates that the residents there can significantly reduce their reliance on a car let alone eliminate the appeal of venturing beyond the town limits.

You have some local takeways, pub, cafe etc etc, what town does not? ... The reality is you'll (and everyone else in the same area) will get fed up of the repetition.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

That sounds about right...bike definitely quicker...bike lanes are terrible or non-existant (making the route dangerous to inexperienced cyclists) on the Urmston-Trafford-Mcr route though.
(I'm retired).

I go on the towpath from Trafford Park, easy to get on to from the Parkway flyover. About 25 mins to the locks below Deansgate Castlefield tram stop. Pleasant ride, too.

 

[Weekender]

I go on the towpath from Trafford Park, easy to get on to from the Parkway flyover. About 25 mins to the locks below Deansgate Castlefield tram stop. Pleasant ride, too.

Yes I used to use the canal occasionally in the summer and jump on from the Transpennine* near the White House sailing Club. It's filthy and pitch-black in the winter and about 2 miles further so about 38mins given the slower pace. So I tended to stick to the road, especially as there are No Cycling signs on the towpath when you reach the flats in town and you have to get back on the road again.
Watch out for the Canada geese in breeding season.

*I'm at the Urmston Station end and it never occurred to me to make for the Parkway...tbh after I'd been doing it for a couple of years I just wanted to thrash in and out on the road bike and get it done asap.

 

[miktec]

You have some local takeways, pub, cafe etc etc, what town does not? ... The reality is you'll (and everyone else in the same area) will get fed up of the repetition.

That made me laugh - have you never heard of getting food delivered

Plus, it would take me quite a while given that I make infrequent use of any or all of the many takeaways listed earlier. (plenty of other shops in the area)

Plenty of choice either way so your point isn't even applicable,
You are clutching at flimsy straws because you don't like the reality facing you that you might be wrong in your assumptions.

 

[Anh]

That made me laugh - have you never heard of getting food delivered

Plus, it would take me quite a while given that I make infrequent use of any or all of the many takeaways listed earlier. (plenty of other shops in the area)

That doesn't make sense, if everything you really needed was within 15 mins walk, why would you then order a delivery and pay surcharges on top of that?

It's not just about food and takeaways is it? There are social aspects, new faces, new points of interest, a change of scene ... perhaps you are happy with a repetitive (and dare I say hermetic) form of living, but it does not mean others on the same street would be.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

It's not just about food and takeaways is it? There are social aspects, new faces, new points of interest, a change of scene ... perhaps you are happy with a repetitive (and dare I say hermetic) form of living, but it does not mean others on the same street would be.

You’re missing the point that this isn’t about preventing travel, or banning the use of cars. It’s much more about reducing or eliminating the need for cars for the necessities, and a lot of the regular stuff.