paulfromcamden
Baffled
I guess it's worth pointing out that the directors of the film in question aren't from the traditional right, they're old school Marxist academics who view themselves as part of the radical left.
The Rise of the Far Right
- Thread starter droodzilla
- Start date
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
The point is that women's rights are not exclusively linked to being female by sex; and being female by gender should also be just as relevant. You don't seem to want to accept that 'gender' and 'sex' are overlapping sets.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Then it's no problem to state your own position surely?
Seanm
pfm Member
The better comparison is with scientific racism, on reflection. Exclusionary and without intellectual merit so not worth considering in the classroom except as an object of critique.
laughingboy
pfm Member
We get here from a statement of fact. Transgender people exist and they have always existed. The evidence is in. There is no debate to be had. So, to my mind, any discussion must follow from that: i.e., given that transgender people exist, how should our society, which has largely developed without accommodating this fact, adjust?
That's where we are, if we stick to facts. You can call it 'airing a view' but your statement 'a woman is a human female' is highly problematic because it doesn't accommodate this fact. It causes problems not just for trans women but also for trans men, because in a binary gendered society, it excludes them.
claire.foxx
-⃝⃤
Finally after a few months waiting tedmanzie’s given up the “reasonable concern” pretence and just said the quiet bit out loud. It shines like a beacon to trans people, we see you for what you are.
I’ve explained in the past the biological reductivism and binary essentialism of the gender critical “movement” (flimsy as it is); there is no way to categorise “woman” without erasing far far far more cis women than the trans women you are trying to eradicate.
BTW My passport, state ID is all marked as Female, Birth certificate too. By the state and granted by law. Die mad about it.
I’ve explained in the past the biological reductivism and binary essentialism of the gender critical “movement” (flimsy as it is); there is no way to categorise “woman” without erasing far far far more cis women than the trans women you are trying to eradicate.
BTW My passport, state ID is all marked as Female, Birth certificate too. By the state and granted by law. Die mad about it.
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
It's just the first battle.
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
Doesn't being human confer sufficient standing to demand rights?
Cheese
Bitter lover
With all respect Tony, for cis people with little or no known contact to trans people (which is my case), and looking at how heated up the debates have been for years about these questions, the topic may not be that easy to master.
Here on pfm, @claire.foxx has contributed a lot and she has informed a lot of members, her explanations were/are pretty clear. But would the entire trans community (if there is such a thing) necessarily agree with her on everything ?
My point is just that it must be possible to cool down a little on the subject. Mentalities take time to evolve. I don't think that the current insults and noise going on in every corner of the web will help anyone.
Tony L
Administrator
FWIW I find it a hugely complex thing to moderate and I am always way out of my depth. What I am trying to do is ensure pfm is a safe space. We have a fairly substantial LGBTQ+ demographic on pfm and I am absolutely determined to ensure they feel comfortable and remain welcome here.
My moderation in the past on this particular subject has been both slow and ineffectual and I ended up platforming some very bigoted ideology even if I personally actively challenged it. I have since come to the conclusion that it makes more sense to be absolutely clear that pfm is an anti-fascist site and a safe-space for the LGBTQ+ community. It always has been in theory, but it makes sense to just state it publicly and unambiguously. A little corner of the audio world and wider internet where bigotry will be stamped on. That is the aim anyway.
This has inevitably been ramped-up of late as trans folk have, through absolutely no fault of their own, found themselves right in the middle of a alt-right culture war. They are literally being legislated out of existence in hard-line red states of the USA at present and the UK Tory party is actively importing this ‘trans panic’ mindset here.
I won’t always call moderation decisions correctly (moderating an internet forum is arguably impossible as usually all decisions, including doing nothing, are wrong), but the underlying motivation is always to ensure a safe and welcoming site and to stamp down very hard on anything or anyone who impedes that aim in any way.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I think that's largely the problem tbh. If you rely on depictions in the media trans people are often portrayed as freaks and weirdos. If you haven't experienced gender dysphoria yourself it can be a difficult thing for some people to get their head round. It's easy to 'other' people we don't know.
In my experience if you know someone who is trans they're generally boringly normal and you just find yourself wondering what all the fuss is about and why so many people have it in for them.
And you also realise this isn't an academic debate to be kicked about - it's ordinary people just trying to get on with their lives.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Result. Absolutely feckin’ brilliant.
DonQuixote99
pfm Member
Debate with an ideological opponent is pointless if the goal is to convince them, you will never never never do it. (Once in a blue moon, in conversations with friends, you may convince *them* of something....) Anyway, the only point of debate is to do it publicly and hope to convince some in the audience to varying degrees. This required moderated debate under rules of civility and focus on facts and reason. No one was ever enlightened by two people calling each other names in public.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
They lost out to “Teh Snowflakes”.
A racist dick can’t speak his mind his own country no more.
Hazelberry
sister
LOLZ! Superb!
Shouldn't he have said "I hate females" instead of "I hate women"?
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
I haven't been reading this thread, but a couple of general points I would like to make on this issue.
1. I think it's wrong to conflate GC feminists with fascists or the far right. For sure there is much overlap and problematic behaviour well covered in the Sean video and others but there are definitely GC leaning women who are not remotely right wing or problematic.
2. I know this because I know a lot of them and have been through numerous schisms in a couple of left leaning communities over the last few years. If you go back to before this all started these women would never have been confused with the right and were mostly just left wing feminists.
3. Hence I think it's wrong to think GC == fascist and to approach the debate from this point of view. That's not to excuse the likes of Rowling, Keen-Minshull, etc. etc. just to point out that there are feminists who have views that should be heard.
4. I love ContraPoints and her films although I think they should be approached as philosophy and sociology and somewhat broader than what we might call policy. They are also incredibly personal. I think if one is going to engage with the subject through Contra and her films then you need to approach the debate in a different way, for which I would recommend both her discussion with HealthyGamer and this recent video essay from Hans-Georg Moeller:
5. Most GC feminists I know (at least the reasonable ones) are firmly on the policy front and mostly talk about issues like sport, access to women only places like refuges, medical care for children and so on. These are complicated issues.
6. One last video I would recommend is this from Sabine Hossenfelder which looks more at the science specifically in regard to children.
7. Just to be clear there are some deeply problematic GC people, lots of the policy and the politics is wrong and has been exploited by the very worst people and I stand with and for transgender people -- not least those in my own family -- who remain a marginalised minority whose rights are the primary issues here.
Just my 2c.
1. I think it's wrong to conflate GC feminists with fascists or the far right. For sure there is much overlap and problematic behaviour well covered in the Sean video and others but there are definitely GC leaning women who are not remotely right wing or problematic.
2. I know this because I know a lot of them and have been through numerous schisms in a couple of left leaning communities over the last few years. If you go back to before this all started these women would never have been confused with the right and were mostly just left wing feminists.
3. Hence I think it's wrong to think GC == fascist and to approach the debate from this point of view. That's not to excuse the likes of Rowling, Keen-Minshull, etc. etc. just to point out that there are feminists who have views that should be heard.
4. I love ContraPoints and her films although I think they should be approached as philosophy and sociology and somewhat broader than what we might call policy. They are also incredibly personal. I think if one is going to engage with the subject through Contra and her films then you need to approach the debate in a different way, for which I would recommend both her discussion with HealthyGamer and this recent video essay from Hans-Georg Moeller:
5. Most GC feminists I know (at least the reasonable ones) are firmly on the policy front and mostly talk about issues like sport, access to women only places like refuges, medical care for children and so on. These are complicated issues.
6. One last video I would recommend is this from Sabine Hossenfelder which looks more at the science specifically in regard to children.
7. Just to be clear there are some deeply problematic GC people, lots of the policy and the politics is wrong and has been exploited by the very worst people and I stand with and for transgender people -- not least those in my own family -- who remain a marginalised minority whose rights are the primary issues here.
Just my 2c.
claire.foxx
-⃝⃤
“Ahh the normal centrist has entered the chat.”
I thought the cisgender-nuclear-physicist-with-an-opinion-about-trans-people had a few really ropey takes in that video — seems I am not alone in thinking that. Fresh video too just four hours old. (Starts about 4:00in)
Fun fact. I am one of those people still alive and thriving (despite cis people trynna mess it up) because I got gender affirming care.
I thought the cisgender-nuclear-physicist-with-an-opinion-about-trans-people had a few really ropey takes in that video — seems I am not alone in thinking that. Fresh video too just four hours old. (Starts about 4:00in)
Fun fact. I am one of those people still alive and thriving (despite cis people trynna mess it up) because I got gender affirming care.
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