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Ukraine IV

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dweezil said:
Really?

You don't see the difference between countries remaining with the nationality they desire vs killing them because they don't welcome an invading army?

Do you think it would be legitimate for UK restore the Union flag to all of it's former states?

Bizarre.
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Who desires Brits, pardon me?
 
DimitryZ said:
What's your actual point about the conflict in Ukraine?
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My point is the same one I have outlined consistently, it is that you cannot make the moral case against invasion and violence in isolation.

You cannot make a universal argument against the abhorrence of invasion, of killing people because they object to being invaded, without recognising the instance where the US and the UK have invaded and killed local populations. The attempt to separate them in order to claim moral superiority in one particular case is hypocrisy, but worse that the hypocrisy is the inability to look at where the invasions come from in a historical context, to then address the root causes of abhorrence, and maybe, from that recognition of past mistakes, build a more stable universal argument that makes future invasions and killing less likely.

Yes, we have to deal with this one first, but we will not get rid of this one or prevent a future one by claiming a moral superiority that we do not deserve and runs contrary to our own amoral histories.

We have to recognise our part mistakes before we can start to, hopefully, make changes that might prevent the next Putin. If we don’t recognise our past mistakes, we will not even start to make an improved future possible.

If we want to claim moral superiority we have to get our own house in order first
 
ks.234 said:
My point is the same one I have outlined consistently, it is that you cannot make the moral case against invasion and violence in isolation.
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So far as I can see, that point has been accepted long ago, and more than once. What has been less clear is why we might need to keep on going around the loop.

The context of the Russian Invasion of Ukraine seems fairly convincing for most people here as meaning that it is a 'wrong' for moral and practical reasons. Thus people wish or need to have it fail. "He made me do it." isn't a justification in this case.

That's my view. You are clearly free to disagree. But overall I suspect this as an argument has been flogged to death some time ago.

In addition, yes, it has been clear - to me at least - that our 'acceptance' of the Russian kleptocracy was a serious error that has harmed *us* as well as others, and is still doing so even now*. The wealthy/powerful/influential in the UK have been in their thrall for decades, hiding in plain sight. 'Bout time that changed. Yes, we should have done this years ago. However that issue has been aired in various other threads along with similar 'moral' arguments that touch upon the Invasion. This thread is not the Universe. It's just a very naughty boy... 8-]
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
So far as I can see, that point has been accepted long ago, and more than once. What has been less clear is why we might need to keep on going around the loop.

The context of the Russian Invasion of Ukraine seems fairly convincing for most people here as meaning that it is a 'wrong' for moral and practical reasons. Thus people wish or need to have it fail. "He made me do it." isn't a justification in this case.

That's my view. You are clearly free to disagree. But overall I suspect this as an argument has been flogged to death some time ago.

In addition, yes, it has been clear - to me at least - that our 'acceptance' of the Russian kleptocracy was a serious error that has harmed *us* as well as others, and is still doing so even now*. The wealthy/powerful/influential in the UK have been in their thrall for decades, hiding in plain sight. 'Bout time that changed. Yes, we should have done this years ago. However that issue has been aired in various other threads along with similar 'moral' arguments that touch upon the Invasion. This thread is not the Universe. It's just a very naughty boy... 8-]
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Who said “he made me do it”?
 
ks.234 said:
My point is the same one I have outlined consistently, it is that you cannot make the moral case against invasion and violence in isolation.

You cannot make a universal argument against the abhorrence of invasion, of killing people because they object to being invaded, without recognising the instance where the US and the UK have invaded and killed local populations. The attempt to separate them in order to claim moral superiority in one particular case is hypocrisy, but worse that the hypocrisy is the inability to look at where the invasions come from in a historical context, to then address the root causes of abhorrence, and maybe, from that recognition of past mistakes, build a more stable universal argument that makes future invasions and killing less likely.

Yes, we have to deal with this one first, but we will not get rid of this one or prevent a future one by claiming a moral superiority that we do not deserve and runs contrary to our own amoral histories.

We have to recognise our part mistakes before we can start to, hopefully, make changes that might prevent the next Putin. If we don’t recognise our past mistakes, we will not even start to make an improved future possible.

If we want to claim moral superiority we have to get our own house in order first
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That's really about you.

What is the outcome of your position re. war in Ukraine? What are the practical actions and prescriptions that follow?

It really takes forever to get to the actual meaning...
 
DimitryZ said:
That's really about you.

What is the outcome of your position re. war in Ukraine? What are the practical actions and prescriptions that follow?

It really takes forever to get to the actual meaning...
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If you were genuinely interested in the answer, you wouldn’t wrap the question in sarcasm.
 
ks.234 said:
If you were genuinely interested in the answer, you wouldn’t wrap the question in sarcasm.
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Perhaps another page or two of general discourse on morality, then?

At the end of the day, unless you are a professional philosopher, your personal philosophical position is supposed to inform your actions in the real world.

This is a thread about Russia's war in Ukraine. Care to express an actual position on this subject?
 
DimitryZ said:
Perhaps another page or two of general discourse on morality, then?

At the end of the day, unless you are a professional philosopher, your personal philosophical position is supposed to inform your actions in the real world.

This is a thread about Russia's war in Ukraine. Care to express an actual position on this subject?
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More sarcasm. I have already answered your question at some length and I’d be happy to expand on that answer some more, but you have made it very clear that you are not interested in expanding the discussion, but using sarcasm and ad hom to constrain it.
 
ks.234 said:
More sarcasm. I have already answered your question at some length and I’d be happy to expand on that answer some more, but you have made it very clear that you are not interested in expanding the discussion, but using sarcasm and ad hom to constrain it.
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It's really not about me.

Do you have anything to say about the war that's happening now? Consider your numerous writings on the subject of Western moral decay and utter hipocrisy to have been published as a small book and well-received. What's next?

After many pages of output, you are suddenly shy.
 
While somebody wants here to discuss morality, Russia again used Beloruss teritory to do rocket attacks to Ukraine. Only discussion which I could understand here is how to stop Russia and how to push them back where they come from.
 
DimitryZ said:
It's really not about me.

Do you have anything to say about the war that's happening now?

After many pages of output, you are suddenly shy.
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Not shy at all, I’d be more than happy to develop my thoughts on Ukraine into history, politics and economics. Areas I am rather interested in and relevant to the situation in Ukraine. But I am not that interested in just trading insults which is all you seem to be interested in.
 
ks.234 said:
Not shy at all, I’d be more than happy to develop my thoughts on Ukraine into history, politics and economics. Areas I am rather interested in and relevant to the situation in Ukraine. But I am not that interested in just trading insults which is all you seem to be interested in.
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Why don’t you get on with it then. Rather than post after post about how you are misunderstood. Christ, even your avatar is irritating:)
 
gints said:
While somebody wants here to discuss morality, Russia again used Beloruss teritory to do rocket attacks to Ukraine. Only discussion which I could understand here is how to stop Russia and how to push them back where they come from.
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The Kremlin is looking for the window dressing of “other regional powers deciding to assist the special military operation to defeat the neo-Nazis in Ukraine”. In other words, the throwback controlling Belarus has just had his chain pulled by the violent midget in Moscow.
 
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