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Johnson the Dictator

In the U.K. the centre seems to be defined more by what it is against, than what it is for. A few years ago there were many on pfm who self identified as centrists, but that was in angry opposition to Corbyn. Nowadays many of those same centrists still retain their anger for Corbyn, but are also angry with Johnson, so I guess the centre in the UK today is somewhere around Starmer’s Labour and/or the Lib Dems.
I see things slightly differently, but probably arrive at much the same place: I think that the labels 'right', 'left' and 'centre' get in the way of seeing what most people are. Most have a mixture of views on different issues - some of those views are 'left-' some are 'right-wing'. For example, on this forum there are people who regard themselves as 'right wing' who support the socialist NHS. When it comes to politics, outside of the 'true believers', people have a mix of views, sometimes even contradictory views. This means that the 'centre' is an emergent phenomenon, made up of the views of millions of people from all political positions, not just 'centrists'. And the envelope of those views is a set of cultural norms. So, yes, Labour's acquiescence to, say, the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act shifts the centre, because Labour is accepting as a norm certain measures that are clearly authoritarian.
ks234 said:
We are facing environmental disaster of existential proportions and the market cannot solve it, the market has priorities that actively prevent it solving it. If we are to tackle climate change it will have to come from determined, extensive, planned, long term intervention by governments...we cannot leave the market in charge. It requires intervention.
Quite agree. And by implication, we need to invest ('deficit spend' or otherwise) to do it. The West needs to adopt the best of what already exists, to invent a social model that delivers popular wellbeing within planetary limits. It needs to model this so the rest of the world, notably China and India, will be able to follow. Our cities need to look like Groningen, our transport systems need to look like French high-speed rail, our homes need to be near-passivhaus, our essential supply chains (food/energy) need to be made resilient etc. Anything less may not be quick enough to avert systemic food chain collapse (agriculture) (fishing) via climate meltdown.
 
I see things slightly differently, but probably arrive at much the same place: I think that the labels 'right', 'left' and 'centre' get in the way of seeing what most people are. Most have a mixture of views on different issues - some of those views are 'left-' some are 'right-wing'. For example, on this forum there are people who regard themselves as 'right wing' who support the socialist NHS. When it comes to politics, outside of the 'true believers', people have a mix of views, sometimes even contradictory views. This means that the 'centre' is an emergent phenomenon, made up of the views of millions of people from all political positions, not just 'centrists'. And the envelope of those views is a set of cultural norms. So, yes, Labour's acquiescence to, say, the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act shifts the centre, because Labour is accepting as a norm certain measures that are clearly authoritarian.

Agreed. This is where the difference between the LDs and Labour is the most interesting IMO. It is an area where we need at least two axis on any plot, and I think Political Compass does fairly well in splitting the economic axis away from a libertarian/authoritarian one. I‘m not convinced they place parties accurately on those axis, but the split is very logical. To my eyes Labour are economically slightly to the left of the LDs, especially when it comes to mass labour and public sector workers. I view the LDs as far more small business-friendly. The only one of the three main parties that even seems to notice us. Neither Tory or Labour give even the slightest shit about us.

When it comes to the other axis Labour are just hopelessly socially conservative and authoritarian. As bad as the Tories in most respects. Always cowering or pandering to a Sun/Daily Mail tabloid readership and the hate they feed on. I always side with the LDs here as this axis is more important to me. The Libs always vote for human rights, civil liberties, against gammon nationalism, against neoconservative wars etc. I exist so far out of the mainstream I can survive in pretty much any economic reality, but I am terrified by the ongoing slide towards nationalism and even fascism. Labour always seem too cowardly to openly fight against this. They never stand up. I also obviously believe in true democracy and electoral reform, and Labour have never been on that page for a second. This is why they are of no use to me.
 
My rather simplistic take on the point about a deregulated market is that the fact that we have laws tells us that we need controls on behaviour. People will be people. And that applies as much to corporations and markets as to individuals, because corporations and markets are operated and controlled by people. So if we accept that we need laws to constrain our worst instincts, we also need regulation to control those worst instincts being given an outlet in the regulated enterprise.

It then seems to me that anybody arguing that we don't need regulation, or have too much regulation, may have an agenda of their own, perhaps involving the sort of misbehaviour the regulation is designed to defend against.
 
I see things slightly differently, but probably arrive at much the same place: I think that the labels 'right', 'left' and 'centre' get in the way of seeing what most people are. Most have a mixture of views on different issues - some of those views are 'left-' some are 'right-wing'. For example, on this forum there are people who regard themselves as 'right wing' who support the socialist NHS. When it comes to politics, outside of the 'true believers', people have a mix of views, sometimes even contradictory views. This means that the 'centre' is an emergent phenomenon, made up of the views of millions of people from all political positions, not just 'centrists'. And the envelope of those views is a set of cultural norms. So, yes, Labour's acquiescence to, say, the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act shifts the centre, because Labour is accepting as a norm certain measures that are clearly authoritarian.

Don’t disagree with any of that. Quite a few identify me as socialist, a few others as hard left and one or two as an ideologue, but there is much about socialism with which I do not identity with so tend to avoid self identification other than occasionally describing myself as leftish and for social and environmental justice.

When I use the word centrist, I am working from the assumption the elections are won from the centre, an assumption that was popular on here not so long ago, and that the centre therefore has to be roughly where we are right now because the two main parties are so close together.

I might have to revise that opinion in light of a book I’ve just started reading called Angrynomics, a non-academic book (it has big friendly letters on the front) that is nevertheless quite informative. It suggests that anger comes in two main forms, justified anger against specific things and tribal anger that is about identity with a group.

The book describes a post war politics that broke down political identities where the right became more left with Macmillian’s Middle Way and a left that became more right. The search for identity led to Blair and Clinton, both of whom went in for a bonfire of financial regulations that led to The Crash. After the Crash left, right and centre were justifiably anger, but had nowhere to turn in what appeared to be a consensus that bumper banker bonuses were necessary. There Is No Alternative was a phrase from Thatcher that was adopted by Osbourne and unchallenged by Labour or Lib Dem. There was anger, but in that consensus it lacked direction. To turn away justified anger, for which they were responsible, politicians turned more and more to exploiting tribal anger. It amplified anger at minorities and those on the outside and gave it a sense of direction, which is why we get Trump and his Wall and Brexit and trade Barriers.

Tony will no doubt jump in here and talk about Corbyn and fascism and authoritarianism and far right nationalism, and there is some truth in that, but the broader truth is that tribal anger went across left, right, and centre, and more important, to focus on that tribal anger, lets our politician off the hook when they should facing our justified anger

The more relevant truth is that if we want to move on from politics based on tribal anger, we need to find an alternative, an identity based on justified anger, and anger that is informed by objective moral and existential wrongs. Objective anger directed at changing social, economic, political, and above all, environmental injustice.

Which leads us onto……
Quite agree. And by implication, we need to invest ('deficit spend' or otherwise) to do it. The West needs to adopt the best of what already exists, to invent a social model that delivers popular wellbeing within planetary limits. It needs to model this so the rest of the world, notably China and India, will be able to follow. Our cities need to look like Groningen, our transport systems need to look like French high-speed rail, our homes need to be near-passivhaus, our essential supply chains (food/energy) need to be made resilient etc. Anything less may not be quick enough to avert systemic food chain collapse (agriculture) (fishing) via climate meltdown.
….which perfectly encapsulates where our anger needs to be directed….
 
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I might have to revise that opinion in light of a book I’ve just started reading called Angrynomics, a non-academic book (it has big friendly letters on the front) that is nevertheless quite informative. It suggests that anger comes in two main forms, justified anger against specific things and tribal anger that is about identity with a group.
You've reminded me of this experiment on Capuchin monkeys:

Looked at in terms of this experiment, following the 2008 crash the UK's political parties both said to the monkey on the left, 'You will continue to receive cucumber, not grapes. The banks had all the grapes.' Cue justified anger :mad:.

Exacerbated economic unfairness has a knack of leading to reactionary politics. And that's the reason why, unlike Tony L, I have little time for the Lib Dems. I prioritise the economics, and while the Orange Book crowd are in charge I can't even consider them, even though I agree with them on many matters of individual liberty. If the economics aren't fair, and Liberal economics exacerbate inequality (see Keynes and Macmillan), long-term social justice is impossible.

Historically, sudden increases in economic suffering have opened the door to the introduction of fascism/authoritarianism. I simplify, but I think there's a strong argument that there would have been no Trump administration without the one-two combination of the slow wage cut of the neoliberal period followed by the fiscal pepper-spray of 2008. No Hitler without Versaille/Weimar followed by the Great Depression. Who suffers most? Who suffers early? The already oppressed. In my view, social justice is downstream of economics.
 
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Exacerbated economic unfairness has a knack of leading to reactionary politics. And that's the reason why, unlike Tony L, I have little time for the Lib Dems. I prioritise the economics, and while the Orange Book crowd are in charge I can't even consider them, even though I agree with them on many matters of individual liberty. If the economics aren't fair, and Liberal economics exacerbate inequality (see Keynes and Macmillan), long-term social justice is impossible.

Historically, sudden increases in economic suffering have opened the door to the introduction of fascism/authoritarianism.

I accept your point, but we need to assess the options on the table and prospects for real reform. Labour are fundamentally authoritarian and regularly pander to the very worst racism and social conservatism of their base. They won’t even stand up against the brutal fascism of the Tories illegal Rwanda deportation scam. That is how cowardly they are. They also fundamentally oppose democratic reform and have never argued for it in any manifesto of their 122 year history to my knowledge. As such they can’t be seen as anything but an extension of the conservative establishment/ruling class. Economic reform will only come after democratic reform. It is not possible otherwise. There is a huge amount wrong with the LDs, SNP, PC, Greens etc, but they are absolutely essential in dragging an authoritarian-right establishment-lackey Labour party kicking and screaming towards real reform. A Labour majority would be nothing more than a five year delay until the next Tory party government comes back to finish off the UK. I want more than that!
 
I’m hoping for both. I think a coalition or minority government will be far more radical and effective than anything Labour would do on their own. I just can’t get enthusiastic about Labour winning the next election with a majority based on where the party is at present.
 
I think there's a strong argument that there would have been no Trump administration without the one-two combination of the slow wage cut of the neoliberal period followed by the fiscal pepper-spray of 2008.

I agree with this, but the other major contributing factor to Trumps victory was that many on the left either abstained or voted for a third party (Jill Stein) on the mistaken basis that "Hillary is just more of the same sh*t and, really just how bad could Trump be ?", only to find out that the answer to "just how bad could Trump be" very nearly ended US democracy completely (and would have done without the intervention of Covid, without which Trump would have won an easy re-election).
 
I accept your point.
My point wasn't that you are wrong, or that I am certain that I am right. If I were certain, I wouldn't be able to change my mind, and who'd want that? It was merely an explanation of why my frame of reference is categorically different to yours even though I share many of your concerns.
 
My point wasn't that you are wrong, or that I am certain that I am right. If I were certain, I wouldn't be able to change my mind, and who'd want that? It was merely an explanation of why my frame of reference is categorically different to yours even though I share many of your concerns.

I accept many of your points too. I just see them a little further down the road. My view is wherever there are fascists the first priority is calling them out and removing them by whatever means is necessary. That > everything else.

We are already at the stage of our government kidnapping brown people and sending them to concentration camps 4000 miles away. We are already at the stage of public protest being criminalised. We are already at the stage of “laws” being passed implementing voter suppression and other gerrymandering techniques. We are already surrounded by flags and nationalist rhetoric. Talk about the economy can wait, these are far more immediate priorities to my mind. The thing that terrifies me the most is how cowed and blind our so called “opposition” is to what is happening both here and in America. This is absolutely not normal behaviour. History tells us exactly what this is. It needs stopping. Right now.

That said I’d very much like to see some real progressive economic reform. I’m not a million miles away from most on the left of centre here. I think more like a small business owner/independent, but I can see and agree with most of the arguments.
 
They abstained on the Tories extremist Rwanda trafficking policy too. On anything to do with human rights and civil liberties it is always the LDs, SNP, PC and Green on the right side of the argument. Labour really can’t be trusted at all.
 
Pathetic yes, and no they shouldn’t have ever entered coalition with the Tories, but it was hardly bloody Iraq! They took what little they could get, which as far as I can recall was tax cuts to help the working poor, not the super rich, a few environmental bills, and retaining the ban on fox hunting. Plus obviously pushing Osborne towards the economic strategy favoured by Alistair Darling and Labour, which he ended up following as his extremism was obviously failing and driving a recession. There was probably more, but a minority party can only influence, they can’t dictate. We have since seen what the Tories are without any restraints or opposition at all, and it is basically fascism. Much of which Labour can’t even be arsed to oppose.
 
I agree, Iraq was a war crime and Blair should be locked up. I also agree that Starmer's Labour won't oppose the tories in any meaningful way. Starmer joined with the Guardian and the PLP right to assist the tories in removing Corbyn and what he and the labour (soft) left stood for.

You keep telling us you're not tribal yet you never allow any opportunity pass to say how wonderful the libdems are in spite of zero practical positive evidence and a load of contra indications.
 
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You keep telling us you're not tribal yet you never allow any opportunity pass to say how wonderful the libdems are in spite of zero practical positive evidence and a load of contra indications.

I’m using them as an indicator as to how bloody awful Labour are, that is all. To my mind the two key issues this country faces at present is the slide into far-right nationalism/fascism and the lack of a proper representative democracy. The voting records of the non-Tory parties speaks volumes. I know which are more use to me and which can not be trusted. If Labour grow a spine and start fighting on both these fronts I’ll happily vote for them, but again, voting records. That is what I judge a party on and at present any of the other progressive parties are way, way more credible than Labour. If that changes then I’ll change. I will always vote for the party closest to my political viewpoint at an election unless I need to vote tactically.
 
I have voted Labour all my voting life. I doubt I will again because it is Tory-lite and has been for some time. I will never vote LibDem because they will never form a Government.
 


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