Labour Leader: Keir Starmer III

[Seanm]

I’m rather more positive about it as I never had any hope or belief in Labour as a vehicle for change. They are always continuation. The other type of same. My hope is, given time, something far younger and more modern will emerge which highlights just how fundamentally anti-democratic, corrupt and archaic the whole Westminster system (and the concept of monarchy that underwrites it) actually is. I can see younger folk becoming increasingly angry with a system that so actively and deliberately chooses not to represent their interests.

Literally just happened and you didn’t recognise it because it didn’t look how you expected it to look. That’s the trouble with generationally defined politics I guess.

 

[droodzilla]

@Tony L, yes I'm quite philosophical about the medium to long term. A dream deferred, and all that... I just don't expect to see much shift in my lifetime, now.

We disagree about Corbyn but, as it happens, I doubt much would have changed even if Labour had won. Having seen how the Labour right operate for five years now, I'm sure they would have continued to sabotage their own party in government, just because they were no longer were in charge.

This might be a bit niche but this Twitter exchange is a good indication of what we're dealing with:

https://twitter.com/faizashaheen/status/1368590703740280840

Faiza Shaheen is the best of Labour and came very close to unseating Ian Duncan Smith in 2019 (even managing to increase Labour's vote share compared with 2017). The other guy... well, judge for yourself:

https://twitter.com/SteveMacey1985

His Twitter stream is full of "anti-woke" shite, and "legitimate concern" type pandering to racism. He has kinder words for Nigel Farage than he has for Faiza Shaheen, a member of his own party. Not my values, that's for sure.

Anyway, back to business as usual for the foreseeable future.

 

[Tony L]

Literally just happened and you didn’t recognise it because it didn’t look how you expected it to look. That’s the trouble with generationally defined politics I guess.

I certainly wasn’t expecting to look like a cross between an elderly Islington Derek Hatton tribute and Nick Clegg!

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I think Sean's point is that the way Corbyn was smashed from all directions is a sign of how broken the system is. Even the mild, European style, reforms proposed by Corbyn had to be stopped, even if everything else was burned to the ground in the process.

I hope you'll read the Open Democracy article Sean linked to. Nearly a million quid splashed on social media ads hostile to Labour - funding opaque, and technically not counted as Conservative Party election expenditure. It's not at all comparable with AAV - that's just a bloke churning out stuff from his bedroom in Sheffield (not me, I hasten to add!), with a small number of paying supporters.

I sometimes wonder if Corbyn's cardinal sin was that he would not fall into line on foreign policy. He might even have pursued individuals for historic human rights abuses, had he gained power. I'm sure that must have been intolerable to some people in the political establishment and the security services. Starmer presents no such problem, obviously.

Whatever, the destruction of Corbyn (and the continuing attempt to delegitimise the left) is the darkest episode in politics I have ever witnessed. The UK has been irrevocably changed by it, and I no longer expect to see progressive change in my lifetime. As I said in another post, maybe the next generation will make a better job of it.

If I could give that 10 likes I would have done. nail on head mate

 

[ks.234]

Clearing out a few drawers and came across this from before the leadership election. It’s Starmer’s pitch for the leadership and one of the reasons he got my vote.

How much of those opening paragraphs can we comfortably expect to see in Starmer’s pitch for the general election?

Has Starmer been emphasising his ‘core socialist values’ which are the ‘foundation of a radical agenda’? If not, why not? Are those values now inconvenient?

Have we heard anything about repealing the ‘malicious’ Trade Union Act? Or taking Royal Mail back into public hands?

If past front page promises are broken on the wheel of political expediency, then what trust can anyone have in anything that comes out of the mouth of Sir Keir Starmer about the future?

The letter is on the fire now, which I fear will be it most effective use.

 

[Tony L]

Now might be a good time for progressives to consider the position of the monarchy given the inherent racism and bullying culture of both the organisation itself and the gutter press that supports/promotes it has apparently been exposed yet again in the Oprah interview with Harry and Meghan.

Labour are almost certainly too gammon-nationalist and generally cap doffing to the establishment and the tabloid press to do this, but if they were an entity that believed in the fundamental concept of representative democracy now would be a good time to drive a wedge or two into this ugly archaic institution.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Now might be a good time for progressives to consider the position of the monarchy given the inherent racism and bullying culture of both the organisation itself and the gutter press that supports/promotes it has apparently been exposed yet again in the Oprah interview with Harry and Meghan.

Amusingly, Corbyn is anti-monarchy, but he could see that a) his was a minority view, and b) that the monarchy was about 1,000th on the list of necessary reforms. Personally, I couldn't give a flying one about Harry, Meghan, Charles, Wills or any of them, but I expect Mrs H will be watching the Harry & Meghan interview later.

 

[Tony L]

Personally, I couldn't give a flying one about Harry, Meghan, Charles, Wills or any of them, but I expect Mrs H will be watching the Harry & Meghan interview later.

I’m the same, I really do not care about these people or the violent and archaic institution they were born into. I certainly do not respect their authority or self-professed position at all. I am “subject” to no one! I believe very firmly in democracy and in human rights and civil liberties, and since leaving the EU we are at a very great risk IMO as we have lost so many checks and balances on what is not an accountable democracy in any meaningful sense.

From my perspective removing the monarchy is a fundamentally necessary step in any process of implementing a representative democracy in the UK. It is easier to start that dialogue when they are at their weakest. That may be now.

 

[ks.234]

This arrived in my inbox yesterday...

...so similar to the Tory Covid messaging and further evidence that the Labour Party’s only strategy for re election is to mimic the Tories as close as possible, also what is the Labour plan to secure the economy, protect the NHS or rebuild Britain, where’s the substance?

 

[russel]

I do think all the ‘Poor St Jeremy The Victim’ thing is a bit much. I accept the point about the BBC, that should unquestionably be impartial, but Labour’s MPs are 100% on Labour, they selected that crap themselves, and the Conservatives broke no laws I’m aware of with their campaigning. Momentum, AAV etc were absolutely all over social media, my feed was full of it, so again fair game if the Tories used it too. The UK tabloid press is unspeakably vile, right wing, and fundamentally racist, but it always has been. That is a constant for at least 100 years.

Being St Jeremy the Victim and Jeremy the useless are not mutually exclusive.

 

[ciderglider]

This arrived in my inbox yesterday...

...so similar to the Tory Covid messaging and further evidence that the Labour Party’s only strategy for re election is to mimic the Tories as close as possible, also what is the Labour plan to secure the economy, protect the NHS or rebuild Britain, where’s the substance?

Let it go...and join millions of ordinary working people on 6th May voting for the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition.

 

[ks.234]

Let it go...and join millions of ordinary working people on 6th May voting for the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition.

If they’re the only opposition to the far right, I might have to

 

[h.g.]

Thornberry criticising the Tories for lying/not performing a brexit impact assessment is obviously not labour withdrawing support for our hard brexit but it is raising brexit as a topic rather than burying it. Is this a glimmer of movement towards a supportable position on brexit? Will Starmer follow?

 

[droodzilla]

Excellent article about the generational divide among Labour voters:

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/03/how-keir-starmer-alienated-generation-left

However, a recent opinion poll suggests that many Labour supporters feel otherwise. It found that among people who voted Labour in 2019—not party members—38 per cent of them would prefer it if Corbyn were still party leader, as opposed to 45 per cent who preferred Starmer. Considering the generally easy ride Starmer has been given by the media since assuming the office, and the probably unprecedented campaign of personal vilification to which Corbyn has been subjected, this isn’t a particularly convincing margin.

The generational divide among those Labour voters was stark. Among 18 to 24-year-olds, 56 per cent preferred Corbyn compared to 29 per cent for Starmer, while 25 to 34-year-olds favoured Corbyn by a margin of 46 per cent to 37 per cent. Starmer’s most enthusiastic support came from older demographics: 65 per cent of 55 to 64-year-olds preferred Starmer over his predecessor, as did 64 per cent of over-65s.

Facinating that the age distribution of the Corbyn-Starmer split mirrors the age distribution of Remain-Leave (or Labour-Conservative).

A depressing conclusion:

The crushing of Corbynism is the first major triumph the Labour right has had in years. It’s worth reflecting on what that “triumph” entailed: stamping out the energy and enthusiasm of people who finally saw reason for hope in parliamentary politics, many for the first time. Objectively, they weren’t asking for much—a welfare state that provides dignity and support, affordable housing, quality healthcare and social care. But already, after just under a year of Starmer, the Labour Party looks much as it did pre-Corbyn: toothless and moribund.

While there’s been a frantic effort to put ‘Generation Left’ back in its box, it won’t be so easy, with multiple crises—economic, environmental, and social—all piling up. The Tories realise this, which is why they’re moving so quickly to introduce boundary changes to benefit older, Tory-held constituencies, along with compulsory voter ID to depress turnout among precarious young workers and minorities. Though to be honest, if the Labour Party continues on its current trajectory, it will be depressing turnout among these groups all by itself.

For me, this reinforces the urgency of understanding the 2017 result. How did Labour reverse its long term decline that year, and how can that electoral coalition be reclaimed and strengthened further? Unfortunately, no-one with any power in the Labour Party seems to be asking those questions.

 

[Tony L]

For me, this reinforces the urgency of understanding the 2017 result. How did Labour reverse its long term decline that year, and how can that electoral coalition be reclaimed and strengthened further? Unfortunately, no-one with any power in the Labour Party seems to be asking those questions.

The problem with all these left-wing Labour echo-chambers (I see lots in Facebook too) is they seem to confuse a genuine desire within younger folk (and many older folk like myself and my friends) for a more equitable, compassionate, green and progressive politics with a defence for the obviously failed Corbyn project. The underlying statistics are correct, but it is clear neither Corbyn nor the Labour Party were even remotely capable of delivering it. IMHO the young progressive left needs to move forwards and that very likely entails leaving the rotting carcass of the Labour career institution behind.

 

[NigelP]

For me, this reinforces the urgency of understanding the 2017 result. How did Labour reverse its long term decline that year, and how can that electoral coalition be reclaimed and strengthened further? Unfortunately, no-one with any power in the Labour Party seems to be asking those questions.

I think in my simplistic mind in 2017 a lot of people wanted change but by the next election this was overridden by the fact the Government could not make any progress on anything......it was all Brexit and Brexit block..... so although policies for labour did not really change people did not want a hamstrung Government yet again with more wasted time, effort, inactivity.


Simples

 

[ks.234]

As @droodzilla says, a proper understanding of the 2017 result is urgently needed.

For those that want to see the rooting carcass of Labour put to rest, a full understanding of the role the right wing of the Labour Party itself played in that narrow defeat would help, and for those who recognise that Corbyn is not the root of all evil it might point to the only option we’ve had for a more equitable, compassionate, green and progressive politics

 

[Tony L]

For those that want to see the rooting carcass of Labour put to rest, a full understanding of the role the right wing of the Labour Party itself played in that narrow defeat, and for those who recognise that Corbyn is not the root of all evil might point to the only option we’ve had for a more equitable, compassionate, green and progressive politics

I accept all of those points. I just realise that the need to capitulate to the far-right Tory Brexit project as well as the countless conservative/authoritarian voices within the PLP, TUC and the traditional working-class electorate means Labour simply isn’t a credible vehicle for green, progressive and liberal politics. It is just way too conflicted and compromised, both internally and externally. It is incapable of change. It’s only role from this point onwards should be to help remove the chains of FPTP and allow a real democracy to emerge. There is nothing else for it to do as it is an obsolete 20th century party in a 21st century world.

 

[Seanm]

The problem with all these left-wing Labour echo-chambers (I see lots in Facebook too) is they seem to confuse a genuine desire within younger folk (and many older folk like myself and my friends) for a more equitable, compassionate, green and progressive politics with a defence for the obviously failed Corbyn project. The underlying statistics are correct, but it is clear neither Corbyn nor the Labour Party were even remotely capable of delivering it. IMHO the young progressive left needs to move forwards and that very likely entails leaving the rotting carcass of the Labour career institution behind.

Here you are telling young people what they want and what they need to do, despite having ignored and failed even to recognise the last youth mobilisation. It isn’t just that young people want change and are sitting around waiting for someone to give it to them, and that Corbyn looked like the best of a bad bunch: it’s that they shaped and drove Corbynism. Corbynism was, among other things, an attempt by young people to bring about change themselves.

PS you’re still prefacing every point with “You can’t see this because you’re in an echo chamber.” It’s a really stupid and insulting way to carry on a conversation.

 

[gavreid]

Corbyn was absolutely correct on Brexit - it was Starmer and Co who misread the tea leaves and pissed the election away, leading to a much more right wing outcome. I've yet to hear Starmer set out what a UK/US trade deal should look like, he'll be presented with a done deal and be made to look like an imbecile.