Is Brexit a Very English Thing?

[eternumviti]

I tend to refer to myself as English rather than British, but that's from an anti-imperialist and anti-centralist perspective. I see Britain, particularly Great Britain, as a remnant of the English empire. And it would appear that a significant number of Scottish, Welsh and Irish do too.
As for taking back control, etc, I am also averse to centralised Westminster control, which is very regionally biased, mainly towards the south east. I used to live in north Wales, then the northwest, now in the southwest, so this has been very noticeable. I am originally from near London, and of course never noticed it then, just as a racial majority frequently doesn't notice racism, like most privileged groups, I imagine.

I agree with bits of that, but take issue with the characterisation of empire as having been 'English'. The British Empire enriched some parts more than others, of course, but Scotland was certainly amongst the winners. Not only were they effective adminstrators across the empire, but they virtually annexed parts of the Caribbean. This is directly linked to the Act of Union of 1707, which permitted for the first time Scots(men) to travel to the West Indies to take up work in the the sugar plantations which, along with the tobacco trade, was to pay for the grand buildings and fine estates that sprung up in and around Glasgow, the ports of Greenock and Leith, and institutions across the country, including of course the great seats of learning. Scottish history of the 18th and 19th centuries is inextricably tied up with slavery, and there remain more Scottish surnames in Jamaica than any other, with Campbells thicker on the ground there than in Scotland itself.

 

[Colin L]

I think this hits the nail on the head, and is so funny it must be repeated at very occassion.
There's a very EV feel to some of this i.e. "what will alter your argument"

 

[kensalriser]

My feeling is the English identity thing before British is relatively new. As the dominant country and culture in the UK, there was never any need for English people to strongly identify as English, as British sufficed. I think there was strong distaste for nationalism for several decades following the war, too - it was noticeable that the Union flag was used in favour of the England flag until the 96 Euro tournament, when it was finally wrested away from the far right.

 

[Paul L]

And hard to disagree with you Arkless or Tony, it shouldn’t be an issue of shame though. I see nothing wrong with an Italian, Ghanaian or Venezuelan being proud of their national identity any more than an English person should. It’s often other nationals who have complimentary things to say about English (or other nationality) peoples. And yes it’s embarrassing how the right wing dominate it, just as it was embarrassing watching football ‘fans’ and holiday goers to Spain represent us. Japan embarrassed everyone at the last World Cup when they picked up everyone’s litter at the last World Cup and I’m guessing they didn’t describe themselves as South Pacificians.

 

[matt j]

I’ve got the impression that it’s okay to be passionate vocally to be Welsh, Irish or Scottish but the English get derided for it as extreme right or racist. It shouldn’t be like that and certainly no feeling of superiority here. Is it different in any country? passionate first about their local area, then their nation then perhaps their continent etc. All a far cry from the Star Trek vision though and we’ve got a long way to go to get to that!

You see, I think there's a clear difference from the sort of pride that Scots, Welsh and Irish are often vocal about and perhaps much of it stems form wanting to distance themselves from the worst of the English.

A lot of the pro English stuff you see or hear isn't about nice things, it's about shit things we've done or wish we were still doing involving the empire. There is certainly a large portion of English exceptionalism around, a simple belief that the English are better than everyone else and should be entitled to more than others.

 

[Paul L]

Hard to disagree

 

[ks.234]

The English language dominates Great Britain, a dominance achieved, in part at least, by suppression of the other languages.

If language is a primary cultural identifier, then English culture is maintained on less than democratic foundations

And if Brexit is an expression of English culture, should it be imposed on the Welsh and Scots?

 

[-alan-]

I think this hits the nail on the head, and is so funny it must be repeated at very occassion.
There's a very EV feel to some of this i.e. "what will alter your argument"

Excellent that
From as far back as 1995..

 

[stevec67]

The English language dominates Great Britain, a dominance achieved, in part at least, by suppression of the other languages.

If language is a primary cultural identifier, then English culture is maintained on less than democratic foundations

Well, I blame the Saxons for that. Them and the Angles, we could call the pair of them the Anglo-Saxons. They came over here, round about 500 AD, brought with them the entire basis of a language and culture, and forced the proper, pure English languages into the corners of the British Isles. Welsh, Cornish, Irish and Scots Gaelic, along with Old English, were pushed out and, yes, suppressed by this new proto-Germanic language. Proper English words that you find reflected in modern Welsh, Scots Gaelic and Irish, such as Mawr, Mor and Mhor, or Bach, Beag, and Beag, or Bwlch, Bealach and Bhealach, have been replaced by the Germanic impostors big/great, small/lesser and way/pass. The list is long.

Where's the democracy in that?

 

[eisenach]

Interesting concept, I think of myself as British first and a Yorkshireman second. Can't think when I ever thought of myself as English, although I am.

Or maybe (for me): Yorkshire -> European -> British

 

[ks.234]

Well, I blame the Saxons for that. Them and the Angles, we could call the pair of them the Anglo-Saxons. They came over here, round about 500 AD, brought with them the entire basis of a language and culture, and forced the proper, pure English languages into the corners of the British Isles. Welsh, Cornish, Irish and Scots Gaelic, along with Old English, were pushed out and, yes, suppressed by this new proto-Germanic language. Proper English words that you find reflected in modern Welsh, Scots Gaelic and Irish, such as Mawr, Mor and Mhor, or Bach, Beag, and Beag, or Bwlch, Bealach and Bhealach, have been replaced by the Germanic impostors big/great, small/lesser and way/pass. The list is long.

Where's the democracy in that?

...so wot your sayin is that English culture, however defined, ain’t fit for the democratic age?

 

[Big Tabs]

I would say I am English/British.

My accent gives me away.

Is Brexit a very English thing?

I do not understand the question.

Especially the ‘very’ bit.

 

[stevec67]

...so wot your sayin is that English culture, however defined, ain’t fit for the democratic age?

Well, I'm sayin' I never voted for my language or culture, luv, (or miduck, or squire, if you prefer), did you? Certainly not. Never so much as a by-your-leave.

 

[TheDecameron]

I agree with bits of that, but take issue with the characterisation of empire as having been 'English'. The British Empire enriched some parts more than others, of course, but Scotland was certainly amongst the winners. Not only were they effective adminstrators across the empire, but they virtually annexed parts of the Caribbean. This is directly linked to the Act of Union of 1707, which permitted for the first time Scots(men) to travel to the West Indies to take up work in the the sugar plantations which, along with the tobacco trade, was to pay for the grand buildings and fine estates that sprung up in and around Glasgow, the ports of Greenock and Leith, and institutions across the country, including of course the great seats of learning. Scottish history of the 18th and 19th centuries is inextricably tied up with slavery, and there remain more Scottish surnames in Jamaica than any other, with Campbells thicker on the ground there than in Scotland itself.

I wouldn’t disagree with much of that but have you spotted your own glaring example of historical error in that account? Clue: It has to do with the faux knowledge of Scottish maritime trading patterns you chose to decorate the account with. (further clue: I walked through it today...).

 

[ks.234]

Well, I'm sayin' I never voted for my language or culture, luv, (or miduck, or squire, if you prefer), did you? Certainly not. Never so much as a by-your-leave.

Yes, agree with the underlying truth of that. In my post I originally said that the dominance of the English Language was maintained by oppression, which it was, especially in Wales. I attempted to softened it with ‘less than democratic’. Wish I hadn’t bothered now!

 

[narabdela]

Does this mean that Brexit is dominated by a sense of English identities rather than greater British identities?

Is the ideology of Brexit a logical first step to the break up of the United Kingdom and NI?

Yes, and yes.

 

[Cheese]

This thread has, until now, mainly been written by very open-minded people devoid of even the slightest form racism. God beware. At the same time, some of you guys are suddenly very accurate in outlining the importance and difference of being Welsh, English or Scottish, and your personal affiliation with one of these 'nationalities' or whatever you may mean. Suddenly such things matter very much.

We have the same sort of stupidity here between Swiss Germans and Swiss French, especially in the region where I live (on the ceasefire line sort of). <roll eyes>

Some of you have a case (NI for instance) but all other age-old problems should be forgotten by now, shouldn't they.

 

[tonerei]

Sorry to sound crass but a nation has just had a collective brain fart caused by the generation now over 50 and they have delivered a kick in the bxlls to the Irish, Scottish and Welsh and have been a complete pain in the arse to the collective EU who have done nothing to them.

But like the US something sick has happened in England and in your case it has brought the house down.

 

[Seeker_UK]

I am a citizen of the planet earth.

What colour is the passport?

 

[TheDecameron]

What colour is the passport?

It’s the Soros/Gates chip mark IV.