New turntable
- Thread starter mark-hants
- Start date
After reading this thread, my curiosity was aroused so I decided to have a look on eBay. Has anybody seen the stuff this guy sells? It looks incredible..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/111835996154
I used to have a Gyrodec but sold it after building my own Lenco L75 PTP based turntable, which just sounded so much more enjoyable. It hasn't stopped me looking for something a bit different, hence my interest in this thread.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/111835996154
I used to have a Gyrodec but sold it after building my own Lenco L75 PTP based turntable, which just sounded so much more enjoyable. It hasn't stopped me looking for something a bit different, hence my interest in this thread.
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mark-hants
pfm Member
That's quite a thing of beauty, barely recognisable as the same deck. I reckon that guy probably knows what he's doing with them 
I used Linn springs when I refurbished mine. Took a while to get the balance/bounce right, but succeeded in the end. Put on a Rega arm, and, to be honest, I don't think it's a mile away from my vastly more expensive Linn, to the point where I've been avoiding making a direct comparison
torstoi
pfm Member
I'd work into getting a solution to the suspension with your deck first.
There has to be someone who has experise and can help, as suggested above.
This also avoids, should you eventually really change your deck at some point,
that you ever keep asking yourself if the new deck was better overall, or if it was better only bc your Thorens wasn't set up propperly..
Then I'd check out wich MC works well with your arm and settle for one.
The solution for the springs won't eat much money & the new MC cart is no dead end the same- you can take it onto another deck should you eventually decide to move on.
Thus depending on choice of cart, you'll have a bit of money left from the amount intended to spend.
I'd try to listen to other decks if opportunity is given, but I wouldn't break it over the knee in buying a new deck.
Visiting bake-offs is interesting, sometimes with astonishing results...and good inspiration.
There has to be someone who has experise and can help, as suggested above.
This also avoids, should you eventually really change your deck at some point,
that you ever keep asking yourself if the new deck was better overall, or if it was better only bc your Thorens wasn't set up propperly..
Then I'd check out wich MC works well with your arm and settle for one.
The solution for the springs won't eat much money & the new MC cart is no dead end the same- you can take it onto another deck should you eventually decide to move on.
Thus depending on choice of cart, you'll have a bit of money left from the amount intended to spend.
I'd try to listen to other decks if opportunity is given, but I wouldn't break it over the knee in buying a new deck.
Visiting bake-offs is interesting, sometimes with astonishing results...and good inspiration.
mark-hants
pfm Member
The place that serviced the deck for me did recommend new springs. Suggestion was Linn springs.
avole, if I may ask, what did you do to "get it right" with those?
They do seem to know their stuff. They also sell second-hand kit, they had a 124 (I think) with a massive tone arm which I didn't recognise and a Dynavector cartridge for sale, along with plenty of other old kit.
I've been listening to the Thorens tonight. It represents the pinnacle of sound quality that I have heard (which then makes me wonder what I have been missing, since this is hardly ultimate top end hi-fi with an old Denon amp and some Cambridge Audio floor-standers).
The most delicious things are the sheer incisiveness of the midrange which is where I hear detail, and the way in which every single tiny nuance is separated, kept separated, nothing "folds together", and sits in clear air space in the room. It never overlaps with anything else no matter how loud or complex the music is. The sense of rhythmic and musical timing is very special. I would suppose those are my key priorities.
The best SQ comes from well-pressed 12" singles @ 45RPM. I have maybe 300 to 400 12" singles and maybe 100 or so LPs.
Asking out of interest - if I were to pay a small fortune for a really good MC cartridge, supposing that our phono pre-amp is up to it (it does have a MC setting) what difference might I hear?
avole, if I may ask, what did you do to "get it right" with those?
They do seem to know their stuff. They also sell second-hand kit, they had a 124 (I think) with a massive tone arm which I didn't recognise and a Dynavector cartridge for sale, along with plenty of other old kit.
I've been listening to the Thorens tonight. It represents the pinnacle of sound quality that I have heard (which then makes me wonder what I have been missing, since this is hardly ultimate top end hi-fi with an old Denon amp and some Cambridge Audio floor-standers).
The most delicious things are the sheer incisiveness of the midrange which is where I hear detail, and the way in which every single tiny nuance is separated, kept separated, nothing "folds together", and sits in clear air space in the room. It never overlaps with anything else no matter how loud or complex the music is. The sense of rhythmic and musical timing is very special. I would suppose those are my key priorities.
The best SQ comes from well-pressed 12" singles @ 45RPM. I have maybe 300 to 400 12" singles and maybe 100 or so LPs.
Asking out of interest - if I were to pay a small fortune for a really good MC cartridge, supposing that our phono pre-amp is up to it (it does have a MC setting) what difference might I hear?
If you got a decent MC then you'd get more of everything.
IF the 3009 is up to it. A 3009 s2imp is a bit light for many MCs, esp the fixed headshell variant. If it's fixed then IMO (look up the arm/cart.matching thing on Vinyl Engine) you are prob best off with MM. The removable version is OK for most MCs, the lowest compliance MCs need a 3009 preimp (or a different arm altogether).
If you like what your '150 does then stay with it. As I said earlier, build a new one of these and it's a £1000 deck. It sounds it too. That reconditioned customised one at £700-some looks absolutely great and it will sound the part too. IMO that deck looks better than a £1000 Rega, I know it sounds better than a P3 or P2, by a long way.
So for me: step 1, sort your springs. Step 2, choose a cart that suits your 3009. Step 3, think about an upgrade. Maybe the custom rebuild jockey, even. Oh, and have fun listening to music on a great record deck.
IF the 3009 is up to it. A 3009 s2imp is a bit light for many MCs, esp the fixed headshell variant. If it's fixed then IMO (look up the arm/cart.matching thing on Vinyl Engine) you are prob best off with MM. The removable version is OK for most MCs, the lowest compliance MCs need a 3009 preimp (or a different arm altogether).
If you like what your '150 does then stay with it. As I said earlier, build a new one of these and it's a £1000 deck. It sounds it too. That reconditioned customised one at £700-some looks absolutely great and it will sound the part too. IMO that deck looks better than a £1000 Rega, I know it sounds better than a P3 or P2, by a long way.
So for me: step 1, sort your springs. Step 2, choose a cart that suits your 3009. Step 3, think about an upgrade. Maybe the custom rebuild jockey, even. Oh, and have fun listening to music on a great record deck.
torstoi
pfm Member
I'm not convinced of this LP12 springs being suitable 100%.
It may help you getting in the right direction, but doubt it will be spot on what the Thorens needs, the Thorens is not an LP12.
A spring handling the specific mass of one make of subchassis perfectly
cannot be perfect for the (different) specific mass of another make of subchassis imo.
I remember having read about a spring testing mechanism, where a spcific force was applied and the spring had to compress exactly my a third then.
In the test it took a huge amount of springs until 3 were found meeting the criteria exactly.
May appear like splitting hair, but may have quite an effect the same, who knows.
I will ask someone for you who's been working in key position of constructing with T.
Let's see what he suggest rgd you deck.
It may help you getting in the right direction, but doubt it will be spot on what the Thorens needs, the Thorens is not an LP12.
A spring handling the specific mass of one make of subchassis perfectly
cannot be perfect for the (different) specific mass of another make of subchassis imo.
I remember having read about a spring testing mechanism, where a spcific force was applied and the spring had to compress exactly my a third then.
In the test it took a huge amount of springs until 3 were found meeting the criteria exactly.
May appear like splitting hair, but may have quite an effect the same, who knows.
I will ask someone for you who's been working in key position of constructing with T.
Let's see what he suggest rgd you deck.
Ptah
pfm Member
It does sound like you're very fond of the TD150 and would find other types of presentation wanting. This is fair enough and is what hifi should be about - don't let anyone try to force their own favourites on you!
On a technical note, are you talking about putting an MC in the SME arm? Not supposed to be a good match. With the SME you'd be better off with something like an Audio-Technica moving magnet, the AT150MLX which I have in occasional use being superb in the midrange.
I can't remember what your phono stage was but something like the Project phono box should work well with it.
mark-hants
pfm Member
I'm not sure what head shell version it has - can anyone comment?
Photo:
The phono box is a Project one.
Have been looking on eBay and the like for replacement springs.
There were some on eBay a while back, but, not new, and therefore not necessarily any better than the ones I have.
I've sent an email to the Thorens UK distributors to enquire about the availability of genuine replacements.
Photo:
The phono box is a Project one.
Have been looking on eBay and the like for replacement springs.
There were some on eBay a while back, but, not new, and therefore not necessarily any better than the ones I have.
I've sent an email to the Thorens UK distributors to enquire about the availability of genuine replacements.
If you're not successful with the Thorens distributor, there are at least two people in Germany who I'm sure could help you with springs.
The Linn springs fit but, as has been mentioned above, seem to be variable. The better Linn dealers routinley go through an elaborate routine to have matching sets.
The Linn springs fit but, as has been mentioned above, seem to be variable. The better Linn dealers routinley go through an elaborate routine to have matching sets.
Bill Colledge
pfm Member
The SME 3009 you show in photograph is the removable headshell version.
Bill.
Bill.
Hi mark,
I followed the instructions here: http://www.fredhifi.com/crbst_9.html .
They were written by Joel Boutreux, an ex Thorens engineer, who worked for them in Germany for 30 years and now sells various turntable maintenance kits.
Note that the page is in French, but I think if you do a search in vinylengine you'll find the same info in English.
I followed the instructions here: http://www.fredhifi.com/crbst_9.html .
They were written by Joel Boutreux, an ex Thorens engineer, who worked for them in Germany for 30 years and now sells various turntable maintenance kits.
Note that the page is in French, but I think if you do a search in vinylengine you'll find the same info in English.
As Bill says, that's a removeable headshell. You turn the collar and the headshell can be removed. If that headshell is the original and the "right" one for the arm then it will be on a 3009 series 2 improved. You can look up the details (or ask here) to see which cartridges will work with it. No Koetsus, Troikas or similar, I'd say.
I know that the effort to refurbish the 150 can be hard work...not least because there aren't so many technicians really familiar with them. But the Thorens 150 was my first ever deck, and I still think they are very fine. The engineering is good, the design follows the now classic 'three point suspension' ideal, and there are still parts.
The truth is, you could spent a lot of money for something not so well engineered, and usually without any proper isolation. The SME arm is, of course, itself a stone-cold classic. But I personally would avoid moving coil cartridges, although an SPU would be lovely!
Anyway, good luck. I hope you don't lose heart.
The truth is, you could spent a lot of money for something not so well engineered, and usually without any proper isolation. The SME arm is, of course, itself a stone-cold classic. But I personally would avoid moving coil cartridges, although an SPU would be lovely!
Anyway, good luck. I hope you don't lose heart.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
I had a 150 in '65/'66 and it was quite bouncy. For some odd reason I put a Decca International unipivot on it, which was exceedingly floppy. This followed two Lencos and was succeeded by a 401, so I can only assume the bouncy floppy effect with a Shure tracking at around 1.25g was a bit of a struggle.
krenzler
pfm Member
3009 versions here:
http://www.analogue-classics.com/html/sme_3009___3012.html
Yours must be the S2 Improved then. I doubt it's the older Series II as the larger counterweight structure might get in the way of the lid. But it's easy to see how they differ at the back.
Also take note of the difference in how much cartridge weight the different versions can balance out.
http://www.analogue-classics.com/html/sme_3009___3012.html
Yours must be the S2 Improved then. I doubt it's the older Series II as the larger counterweight structure might get in the way of the lid. But it's easy to see how they differ at the back.
Also take note of the difference in how much cartridge weight the different versions can balance out.
torstoi
pfm Member
I have an answer and will translate:
Not only has the LP12 stiffer springs, but also the old version LP12 has harder rubber bases for the springs.
Consequence:
The Asymmetries of the springs get less compensated and getting those into neutral position again is a pain in the ass. (codeword: Linn-ghost)
Also the subchassis resonance of about 4 Hz is set higher, which makes the choice of carts a harder.
But as with a SME 3009 due it's low inertia-mass only very soft cartridges are recommended, this is less of a problem.
It will be hard to find a soft enough MC cart, though..a VdH Frog would work, but sadly that's in the 1500-2000€ class.
Different tonearms (heavier) like Jelco can also be used, but this can only be handled by a true expert.
I would prefer a high quality MM system with the 3009 myself, classics like Shure, Ortofon with Shibata shape. (500-800€)
*end quote*
So, contrary to my thoughts, he seems to think the Linn springs will not run you into problems in combination with THIS arm.
Personally I would perhaps try if the above mentioned French specialist can offer a set of dedicated 150 springs for you.
The specialist I contacted also mentioned he has a resonance damping baseplate for the TD150 he created himself.
I can provide you with contact data if you drop me a pm.
(I have my phono pre sitting on one of his resonance damping rack boards.
Some of my friends had a good laugh about that until I pulled out the board during play & pushed in the original Phonosophie board instead.
Their laughter died quickly.)
My understanding at the point of info so far is, that you could well go on with MM and a quite better one than your Goldring still with this deck and good success.
Or if you are hard pressed to try MC, then rather get onto a new platform where the arm and resonance situation is fit for todays common MCs from the start.
Either way you choose, I'd keep the TD150, but that is me..
Good luck !
Not only has the LP12 stiffer springs, but also the old version LP12 has harder rubber bases for the springs.
Consequence:
The Asymmetries of the springs get less compensated and getting those into neutral position again is a pain in the ass. (codeword: Linn-ghost)
Also the subchassis resonance of about 4 Hz is set higher, which makes the choice of carts a harder.
But as with a SME 3009 due it's low inertia-mass only very soft cartridges are recommended, this is less of a problem.
It will be hard to find a soft enough MC cart, though..a VdH Frog would work, but sadly that's in the 1500-2000€ class.
Different tonearms (heavier) like Jelco can also be used, but this can only be handled by a true expert.
I would prefer a high quality MM system with the 3009 myself, classics like Shure, Ortofon with Shibata shape. (500-800€)
*end quote*
So, contrary to my thoughts, he seems to think the Linn springs will not run you into problems in combination with THIS arm.
Personally I would perhaps try if the above mentioned French specialist can offer a set of dedicated 150 springs for you.
The specialist I contacted also mentioned he has a resonance damping baseplate for the TD150 he created himself.
I can provide you with contact data if you drop me a pm.
(I have my phono pre sitting on one of his resonance damping rack boards.
Some of my friends had a good laugh about that until I pulled out the board during play & pushed in the original Phonosophie board instead.
Their laughter died quickly.)
My understanding at the point of info so far is, that you could well go on with MM and a quite better one than your Goldring still with this deck and good success.
Or if you are hard pressed to try MC, then rather get onto a new platform where the arm and resonance situation is fit for todays common MCs from the start.
Either way you choose, I'd keep the TD150, but that is me..
Good luck !