High-end 12" tonearms: what's out there?
- Thread starter Mike Reed
- Start date
3d printing a tonearm is a fantastic idea as you can make the inner wall of the arm different thicknesses and complex internal structures can be made allowing for resonance control and weight distribution, brilliant.
Now who will be the first the produce a tonearm using selective laser sintering? Thei possibilities here are one can 3d print from metal an entire tonearm body with integrated cartridge, no bolt on body, an unbroken mechanical line from head to cable.
Now who will be the first the produce a tonearm using selective laser sintering? Thei possibilities here are one can 3d print from metal an entire tonearm body with integrated cartridge, no bolt on body, an unbroken mechanical line from head to cable.
Tony L
Administrator
I like the 2M Black a lot, in fact when it wears out I'll just buy another stylus for it as I don't feel any need to go further (it's that good!), but it is a high-compliance MM (22cu) so needs a rather light arm:
I use mine in a SME M2-10, which has an effective mass of 9.6g and is a perfect match mass / compliance wise. You'd start to get cone-flap, trouble tracking warps etc with many of the heavier detachable-shell 12" arms with this cart.
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
Mark, your link to an Airfix model was lovely, though I couldn't quite see the relevance.Likewise, I don't know who the pronouns 'he' and 'you' refer to. Did someone hold up the N.A. arm (s?) as paragon(s) of virtue? I think mine's very good on many levels (and simpler than my previous SME V) but I don't recall seeing anywhere the Ace Anna described as the epitome of tonearm design.
Sorry Mike - I was too caught up in my own thoughts; the thread just happens to coincide with a project of my own.
Last year I researched the market for a modern 12" tonearm at a realistic price point, suitable to my turntable project. My shortlist of candidates was:
1) SME 312S
2) Audio Origami PU7-12
3) Kuzma Stogi Ref 313
All three provide adjustment of Azimuth, which I feel is a definite bonus.
Regarding the question of (recomended) retail price of Kuzma Stogi S-12, it was £1010 around this time last year and could be got for around £900 if you had good haggling skills. So, £850 for the (old stock) item on eBay appears somewhat 'optimistic' to me.
1) SME 312S
2) Audio Origami PU7-12
3) Kuzma Stogi Ref 313
All three provide adjustment of Azimuth, which I feel is a definite bonus.
Regarding the question of (recomended) retail price of Kuzma Stogi S-12, it was £1010 around this time last year and could be got for around £900 if you had good haggling skills. So, £850 for the (old stock) item on eBay appears somewhat 'optimistic' to me.
Tony L
Administrator
The Denon 103 is a great cart despite having a big clunky spherical tip. The latter means you'll never get it to trace end-of-side cleanly on most records, but if your diet is mainly vintage Blue Notes etc (i.e. side playing times of 15 minutes or so) then it really has a certain magic. I came to the conclusion that I'd love one on a dedicated arm just for vintage jazz vinyl, but I can't live with the poor tracing ability with rock and classical. I'm a total convert to fine-line, micro-ridge, shibata tips etc now, they really can make the last track sound as clean, crisp and clear as the first. The 103 is very low compliance and likes mass, it's ideal arm is something like a vintage SME 3012 or Ortofon RMG 309. Modern arms such as the SME V12 etc are far less suited as they are medium mass.
As ever with turntables you have to view the whole thing as a complete system. In most respects that starts with a cartridge decision, e.g. if you want to run say an Ortofon SPUGT then that requires a very specific type of tonearm, and that tonearm choice dictates a specific type of turntable capable of supporting it. Same goes if you want to run a high compliance cart like a 2M Black, AT150MLX or an oldie like a Shure V15/III - it leads to a very different choice of arm and maybe deck (i.e. you don't need a huge thing capable of accommodating a high-mass 12" arm). It's obvious you want a 12" arm, so I'd think about the cartridge as an integral part of that decision - the cart you'd select for a SME V12 is very different to that which you'd put in say an Ikeda or Schick. Select them together as a pair.
Whaleblue
Southbound
To be honest Tony, I'm not wed to the idea of a 12" arm, just seemed like a good opportunity to see what they do as it was offered as a near-mint example for £650. I'm also a sucker for good looking TTs and it looks rather elegant.
It's actually this plinth/deck/arm used for the promo photos I'm buying:
http://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/p...es/smd-acoustics-type-ii-301-reference-plinth
Any specific suggestions for a cart would be appreciated. Actually I guess I should see what Ray put on the arm in the pic!
It's actually this plinth/deck/arm used for the promo photos I'm buying:
http://www.classichifi-shop.co.uk/p...es/smd-acoustics-type-ii-301-reference-plinth
Any specific suggestions for a cart would be appreciated. Actually I guess I should see what Ray put on the arm in the pic!
Tony L
Administrator
Cool, assuming that's a SME 312 the effective mass is 14g, so you'll probably be looking for a a medium compliance MC. Here's a nice graph:
Take your arm mass (14g), add the weight of the cartridge body, and say 1g for some bolts, and that's your figure for the bottom axis. The cartridge spec will give you the compliance - you want the combo sitting in the blue zone. As an example the 2M Black would land a fair way out of range there, which would likely lead to problems.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Yes, the Brinkmann has already been suggested, but I gather it's pricey; must investigate.
Certainly there are a lot more 12" arms than I'd initially thought. For me, buying British is preferable; more for practical and economic reasons rather than jingoistic ones.
As I'm never likely to have a mm or VdH cart., a medium heavy to heavy eff. mass arm would be necessary. Although getting spec's out of N.A. is not the easiest thing, I think my Ace Anna is somewhere around the 14 to 16 gramme mark.
Despite the V12's reputation for being an arm for all cart's (slight exaggeration), a 12g eff. mass is not that ideal, I feel, though they're quite clever in making a V12 only 1 g heavier than the V9.
This thread contains some interesting viewpoints and info. 'Tis manna to a die-hard analogue nerd like me. So many are about streaming or somesuch intangible medium.
TONY, that's a nice simple graph; just right for my brain. Ta.
If I read it correctly, he already owns the Ortofon. I can't see that there is any harm In trying the cartridge. I'd make a guess that, whatever the graph says, it will sound just fine...possibly because the compliance figures given by manufacturers are not so accurate in real life.
Anyway, it costs nothing but time to give it a little outing.
Anyway, it costs nothing but time to give it a little outing.
Tony L
Administrator
It will probably sound fine much of the time, it just won't be able to track warps very well and it will likely generate a lot of cone-flap unless the phono stage has a subsonic filter. This stuff is just basic physics.
PS If the compliance figures are not entirely accurate (possibly fair comment as these things vary by temperature, humidity etc) it stands to reason they can be out in either direction, i.e. it may make for an even more undesirable arm/cart resonance!
.
''Despite the V12's reputation for being an arm for all cart's (slight exaggeration), a 12g eff. mass is not that ideal, I feel, though they're quite clever in making a V12 only 1 g heavier than the V9.'' Quote
I don't understand this. If 12gms isn't 'ideal' what mass is? After all, all manufacturers have to choose a mass, and 12gns is smack in the useful range for almost all of the cartridges it would be used with.
What mass do you think it should be ? And as the 9inch V5 is just one gm lighter, you presumably think that is less than ideal too? Given that typical cartridges weigh between 6gms and about 20gms, a manufacturer has no choice but to choose a sensible compromise.
Morch offer different mass arms, but that's rare, and presumably introduces other problems.
Whaleblue
Southbound
Yes, I got very lucky and have a brand new 2M Black, replaced by Henley when my s/h one got sick
I'm still a little wet behind the ears on all this. OK, I've learnt a little just by listening, but trial and error isn't the way to go with so many variables in place. I'm keen to get the input of experience. Hope this isn't cross-threading too much for the OP
...Looks like the older 312 is actually 12g (the S being 14g), but that still leaves the 2M Black on the edge of the blue (Ironically
).If there are carts that jump out as a good match for the arm/TT, with the tracking/sonic qualities Tony mentions for the Black, pointers would be most welcome. Budget would preferably be in a similar ballpark to the Black, as paying more for the same sound would be silly, and I think I was happy with it - if you get my drift?
Tony L
Administrator
Looks like the older 312 is actually 12g (the S being 14g), but that still leaves the 2M Black on the edge of the blue (Ironically
You are probably close enough there. The 2M's screws are short and light, well under a gram, and I'd be inclined to ditch the SME's finger-lift to save weight. Use thin and light headshell leads as any mass you can lose at that end of the arm will really help. The ones that came with my M2 are fine, but don't use fancy big and thick audiophool ones! I'd definitely try it.