Finally some high performance Klipsch speakers

[chiily]

Those horns (wave guides) on the tweeters are seriously killing the off axis response. Which is either a blessing or a curse depending use case.

Agreed. Quad 57 ELSs are kinda beamy too, get the beam just right and nothing that I've heard compares to them.

It is down to room, how one listens (from the kitchen, solo, as a group, etc), what you want, lifestyle wise, one wants from hifi. I have two systems, one I listen mainly alone with beamy speakers and one downstairs that ain't so beamy for family listening. Each system has different qualities and I've picked equipment to match their qualities to the situation.

 

[Mike Hughes]

This is magnificent. People arguing over a speaker no-one has heard.

So, what did put you off marrying an audiophile?

 

[John Phillips]

Speaker linearity accuracy IS dynamics. At least from the speakers point of view. i.e. if a speaker has a given frequency response curve (the actual shape of the curve is actually irrelevant here) when played at a nominal 40dBA (ref 1khz), and the power is increased to raise the speaker to what should be 95dBA (ref 1khz) calculated from the speakers other parameters, and the frequency response curve of the speaker is exactly 55dBA higher at all points on the curve, then the speaker has very good linearity, and thus will have very good dynamics. Then it's down to the electronics and source to accurately create dynamics in the first place. IF however the frequency curve is say an average of 5-6dBA below where it should be, then the speaker isn't reproducing dynamics accurately.

Absolute SPL levels achievable without heat related compression is a separate (though probably not entirely unrelated) specification.

That's exactly how I understand, and I think perceive, dynamics. I believe it's a very important issue for how I enjoy music. It was an issue I investigated before I shortlisted and auditioned loudspeakers last time. The result was a purchase I am continuing to enjoy a lot. However, observation tells me that different people posting here have very different perceptions and very different definitions. And I think perception of dynamics depends a lot on preferred source material and whether or not it has been level compressed significantly in the loudness war.

The issue of loudspeaker dynamics as I see it it is measured very rarely. There are two sites I know with limited coverage. And I don't think I have found out enough to accurately interpret their results. I wonder if the how do you measure dynamics question was more rhetorical and not expecting an answer for discussion, precisely because of individual differences and the difficultes in having such a discussion.

 

[Tigerjones]

They might measure well, but pretty they ain’t.

 

[chiily]

This is magnificent. People arguing over a speaker no-one has heard.

So, what did put you off marrying an audiophile?

Indeed

I am kinda curious about the thread title, "Finally some high performance Kilpsch speakers". Does that mean that all Kilpsch speakers have been poor performance previously? So, they sound better than other Kilpsch speakers? And as if by magic the shopkeeper appears. It's all happening here, I tell ya.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I think dynamics is, or in any event, is generally thought to be more than just whether a speaker scales up accurately and linearly from 40dB to 95dB, or whatever, though. For me, what matters far more is how well the speaker deals wit sudden and highly dynamic changes of level. Does the bass keep up with the treble, or is the note smeared because the time response isn’t so seamless across the various drivers, for example. If I hear a loud timpani, I want the speed of the attack, the weight of the ‘hit’, the pitch, and the decay and no blurring, smearing or slowing of that. I’m less bothered whether the level difference between before and the moment of strike is within a dB of what it should be, and much more interested in when it should be.

 

[Cav]

I bet they sound like a cheap £1650 system with DAC, amp and speakers...

So you don't actually know...

 

[John Phillips]

I think dynamics is, or in any event, is generally thought to be more than just whether a speaker scales up accurately and linearly from 40dB to 95dB, or whatever, though. For me, what matters far more is how well the speaker deals wit sudden and highly dynamic changes of level. Does the bass keep up with the treble, or is the note smeared because the time response isn’t so seamless across the various drivers, for example. If I hear a loud timpani, I want the speed of the attack, the weight of the ‘hit’, the pitch, and the decay and no blurring, smearing or slowing of that. I’m less bothered whether the level difference between before and the moment of strike is within a dB of what it should be, and much more interested in when it should be.

I think this illustrates a problem between individuals when discussing loudspeaker dynamics. For clarity I am not disputing your view.

You combine two issues that I think of as separable and technically they are separable. @gez and I are discussing dynamics as an amplitude-domain phenomenon, and seeing the frequency/time-domain issues you are including in your definition as separate. I get it that you see them as connected under the "dynamics" label in a way I don't.

IMHO to get good dynamics it is essential to get the amplitude-domain performance right. Yes, I accept that in your definition it is not sufficient and that the frequency/time-domain performance must be right as well. It too is essential. I actually agree with you that good frequency/time-domain performace is also essental, but here we have the issue discussed on two different bases. Neither is wrong. It's just that I generally prefer to separate things that are technically separable. IMHO it's far simpler for clarity to discuss separable issues separately. But maybe, in the context of social media, discussing them together and having people discuss things on a different basis is more interesting.

 

[tuga]

May as well set them up in a huge empty tiled swimming pool.

Might sound like this:

 

[tuga]

So you don't actually know...

From my point of view I know that they'll sound a lot more like the music in the recording than many speakers.
I also know that they'll be a lot more tolerant of room interference than many speakers because of the narrow and very smooth directivity and the boundary compensation controls.

I have no idea if you or Tom or Dick or Harry will like them.

 

[tuga]

This is magnificent. People arguing over a speaker no-one has heard.

So, what did put you off marrying an audiophile?

If both of us had heard it, what is the chance that we'd agree on whether we like it?
The tasting session, and one's opinion is only useful for oneself. Measurements are universally useful, if you make the effort.

 

[tuga]

I think dynamics is, or in any event, is generally thought to be more than just whether a speaker scales up accurately and linearly from 40dB to 95dB, or whatever, though. For me, what matters far more is how well the speaker deals wit sudden and highly dynamic changes of level. Does the bass keep up with the treble, or is the note smeared because the time response isn’t so seamless across the various drivers, for example. If I hear a loud timpani, I want the speed of the attack, the weight of the ‘hit’, the pitch, and the decay and no blurring, smearing or slowing of that. I’m less bothered whether the level difference between before and the moment of strike is within a dB of what it should be, and much more interested in when it should be.

You must keep in mind that a single measurement only refers to one parameter, but what you've described (in bold) is characterised by how a "speaker scales up accurately and linearly from 40dB to 95dB".
That's what the graph below says (note that if you sit at a 2m distance you need to subtract 6dB from each curve), how much change (change is bad) is happening when you go up from 75dB to 86dB, to 96dB and to 102dB:

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/wharfedale_linton_85/

 

[myles]

Imagine taking your hobby and introducing new things that make it less fun.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Is there not a clear distinction between ‘dynamics’ and ‘dynamic range’? One seems to me to be about a speaker’s ability to accurately reproduce the extremes of the loudness envelope, and the other is about how well it deals with rapid changes in loudness. These are not the same thing.

 

[tuga]

How does a good turntable test against a £50 DAC?

Not exactly what you're asking for but back in the early '80s Sony showed how 38cm/s (15ips) R2R tape compared to their A/D+D/A converter, the PCM-F1 (vinyl would of course do worse than tape):

 

[S-Man]

From my point of view I know that they'll sound a lot more like the music in the recording than many speakers.
I also know that they'll be a lot more tolerant of room interference than many speakers because of the narrow and very smooth directivity and the boundary compensation controls.

I have no idea if you or Tom or Dick or Harry will like them.

Playing your game... I extrapolate two issues with the sound, based on the Stereophile measurements:

1) Bass with audible overhang
2) Some of the "horn sound"

 

[Mike Hughes]

If both of us had heard it, what is the chance that we'd agree on whether we like it?
The tasting session, and one's opinion is only useful for oneself. Measurements are universally useful, if you make the effort.

Oh heaven help us. If measurements were “universally useful” we’d all use them for every purchase. We don’t. That just might be the answer and the point.

The hilarious thing about measurements is that every discussion which has ever involved them includes a statement along the lines of “The measurements said this so I expected this. However, what I didn’t expect was…” So, no better than, what are they called again, oh yeah, “ears”.

Please confirm that you’re male and single. I’ll die of happiness then.

 

[tuga]

Playing your game... I extrapolate two issues with the sound, based on the Stereophile measurements:

1) Bass with audible overhang
2) Some of the "horn sound"

How are you able to extrapolate that the bass will produce audible overhang?
The port tuning is overdamped and the woofer only peaks by ~2.5dB and not the typical 6dB, an artefact which results from JA's nearfield measuring technique.

What do you mean by 'horn sound' and how does that manifest itself?

 

[tuga]

If measurements were “universally useful” we’d all use them for every purchase.

They are, you just need to make the effort and most people don't.

 

[Mike Hughes]

Ah yes, how very “New Labour“. The problem is not our policies. The problem is that you're not listening hard enough.

You wouldn’t need the dentist if you just brushed your teeth better.

You’d like country music if you listened to it more.

Word of advice. Victim blaming never won any battle. Give up now. It ends in tears.