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Dacs Again

Schiit is a much easier purchase in US, the UK supplier is erratic (and more expensive of course). I’ve always been interested but have only bought, and sold, an Eitr to date.

What I have noticed is that after various spats with ASR, some consistently bad reviews, more recent offerings seem to be well received and are stated to measure far better. I’ve been casually trying to unpick that.

Again, without dragging other forums into this more than necessary (against the AUP), I’d be interested to know what people think - did they kiss and make up or did Schiit make an effort to produce dacs that measure better? And if they did, why didn’t they do that in the the first place and, as a flip side, does newer Schiit actually sound any better?
 
It’s a shame when ASR make people doubt what they have. Do listeners get rid of gear they have loved because ASR are horrified by the measurements? I find that the reviews can be histrionic. The question is whether those measurement actually make a difference to your enjoyment or whether you can actually hear a problem. In most cases,I doubt it. Reading some of the reviews you’d think you could hear a meat grinder in the playback.
 
Del monaco said:
It’s a shame when ASR make people doubt what they have. Do listeners get rid of gear they have loved because ASR are horrified by the measurements? I find that the reviews can be histrionic. The question is whether those measurement actually make a difference to your enjoyment or whether you can actually hear a problem. In most cases,I doubt it. Reading some of the reviews you’d think you could hear a meat grinder in the playback.
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ASR is a forum I don't go on, except when someone links to something specific on there, but reading some members posts I could imagine they would change a component that they loved if it did not measure 'right'. :rolleyes:
 
Okay, my fault, the dog woke me up at 4:30, let’s leave ASR out of it (for balance Super Audio Best Mates for Eva or whatever it’s called, eulogise all things Schiit), but Coherent, anyone, has the Schiit sound changed at all, and if so, for better, worse?
 
Be hard pressed to move anything on just because someone else didn't like it, or because some group measured it and didn't like what they saw. The only criterion is that I like it, and if I've already got it then I'll have evaluated it and it's probably still here on merit and/or because I like it, or it's in the "can I be bothered to move this on" cupboard.

Couple of things still here in a "special interest" capacity, a mint virtually unused Sony WM-D6C, a Kenwood KAF-3030R integrated, and Exposure XXV RC integrated - the last one because other amps are a bit thin on the ground currently.
 
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Alex S said:
- did they kiss and make up or did Schiit make an effort to produce dacs that measure better?
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This part of your question seems to have an obvious answer, unless you think the measurements are made up. Incidentally Schiit seems to remain a bit patchy in that regard.
Incidentally, one can easily answer most of your following questions if one is prepared to accept that ASR's dac measurements are much more sensitive than human hearing (in accordance with conventional estimates of the limits of human hearing) rather than less sensitive than human hearing (as per the audiophile standard model). Having good measurements (as opposed to average ones) is in this context largely a non-sound quality based reason to like one model over another, like having cool VU meters. Having good measurements rather than really bad ones is a matter of sonic taste.
 
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My visiting friend and I compared various DACs over the weekend, although we won't be finishing until he gets back from a side-trip next week. The initial plan was to compare:
  • Benchmark DAC2 HGC
  • Chord Qutest with external linear supply
  • Denafrips Pontus II
  • T+A DAC 200
However, this thread got me curious about the Topping DX3 Pro+, so I ordered one of those to throw into the mix.

To hook all these up with easy switch-over, we had to get inventive. I have a Benchmark HPA4 pre-amp, which allows me to level match all the inputs. We can connect only four sources (2 balanced and 2 RCA), so I decided to test the Topping first, leaving the Chord Qutest out of the mix until the next round. To feed the digital signal to them all, I used:
  • Pi3 running PiCorePlayer, emulating a Squeezebox. I fed the USB from this into a Denafrips Iris DDC, which gives us various digital outputs.
  • Squeezebox Touch with the EDO extensions installed, synced with the Pi3. This gives us two more S/PDIF outputs.
I know some will think the DACs hooked up to the Iris will automatically get a better shake, so we tried various DACs with and without the Iris. It seemed that the Denafrips Pontus II was helped most by the Iris. I could discern no difference with the Benchmark DAC2 and T+D DAC200. I didn't bother checking the Topping, because it would be silly to plug a cheap DAC onto the end of a much more expensive DDC. ;)

Our initial run showed the following:
  • Topping DX3 Pro+ - This was the least enjoyable of the DACs. The top end was over-accentuated and confused; the general sense of flow seemed impeded and muddled; and the overall presentation didn't make sense. I could not live with this DAC for any length of time, and I will be returning it. Sorry Alex. :(
  • Benchmark DAC2 HGC - This was very clear and exacting. Wonderful details and balanced frequency response. Unfortunately it's lacking in rhythmic flow. In a sense, it's too "reasonable" and level-heading, lacking in enthusiasm and excitement. One can understand why this is used in so many studios.
  • Denafrips Pontus II - This sounded much "darker", without the clearly defined edges of notes as presented by the Benchmark. However, it created a larger sense of scale and more enjoyable sense of rhythmic motion.
  • T+A DAC200 - As I've noted before, this DAC seemed to bring the best elements of all the other DACs. Details and clarity were there; tonal balance was phenomenal; PRaT was in full force; and the overall soundstage and imaging were quite wonderful. Nothing to complain about (except the price).
Next week we'll bring the Chord Quest into the mix, to see where it sits. I've also got a Weiss DAC203 on order, but I don't expect it to arrive in time for next week's session.
 
Mike Hanson said:
Topping DX3 Pro+ - This was the least enjoyable of the DACs. The top end was over-accentuated and confused; the general sense of flow seemed impeded and muddled; and the overall presentation didn't make sense. I could not live with this DAC for any length of time, and I will be returning it. Sorry Alex. :(
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No problem, very glad you went to the trouble of testing it. Fortunately, I don't agree and have admit I'm confused that I don't. I've listened to it exclusively since I got it and have no itch to remove it. Hi-Fi is a funny business innit.
 
Alex S said:
No problem, very glad you went to the trouble of testing it. Fortunately, I don't agree and have admit I'm confused that I don't. I've listened to it exclusively since I got it and have no itch to remove it. Hi-Fi is a funny business innit.
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Yup, if there's anything I've learned in life, everyone has very different sensitivities. We each have our buttons to be pressed, for good or bad. :)
 
It's certainly interesting. My belief is the 2Qute with a good PSU is in Qutest territory so we have some kind of dac reference in common. I truly don't hear the failings you identify in the Topping so then there's the question of system synergy but there I've tried it in two completely different ones. It is possible that my MacBook Pro holds everything back as a streamer, I really haven't compared it to much apart from the Blusound 2i and it sounds better than that. I've also used the Topping with the Densen CDP and was pleased with how it sounded.

It's certainly true that I haven't explored the upper reaches of dac-world. I do have the Audial but that's nonconformist. I would love to try the T+A but refuse to do so until I can afford one. Then there's my ears and music tastes. My ears are very good (tested) for my age but I'm old. I have predominantly played classical and female vocal (a bit) through the Topping so I'll try more stuff. I do have a good PSU with the Topping, maybe that elevates it, maybe it doesn't but I'm not sure I can be bothered to test. I also use the Stack Link2 Detox hooked up to it, since I have it. Not sure what it does with the Topping but it seemed to marginally help with the Audial and do nothing with the Chord.
 
Alex S said:
It's certainly interesting. My belief is the 2Qute with a good PSU is in Qutest territory so we have some kind of dac reference in common. I truly don't hear the failings you identify in the Topping so then there's the question of system synergy but there I've tried it in two completely different ones. It is possible that my MacBook Pro holds everything back as a streamer, I really haven't compared it to much apart from the Blusound 2i and it sounds better than that. I've also used the Topping with the Densen CDP and was pleased with how it sounded.

It's certainly true that I haven't explored the upper reaches of dac-world. I do have the Audial but that's nonconformist. I would love to try the T+A but refuse to do so until I can afford one. Then there's my ears and music tastes. My ears are very good (tested) for my age but I'm old. I have predominantly played classical and female vocal (a bit) through the Topping so I'll try more stuff. I do have a good PSU with the Topping, maybe that elevates it, maybe it doesn't but I'm not sure I can be bothered to test. I also use the Stack Link2 Detox hooked up to it, since I have it. Not sure what it does with the Topping but it seemed to marginally help with the Audial and do nothing with the Chord.
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I know that after spending 50 years appreciating Hi-Fi and 30 years of auditioning and collecting it, I've developed a very specific set of expectations. In the case of the Topping, the treble seemed accentuated, which seemed to create an initial impression of being "lively", but I soon realized that it was a jumble. The flow of the rhythm seemed awkward and confused somehow. And that highlight on the upper frequency range caused the overall tonal balance to niggle at me too much. Compared to the other DACs, I perceived it as insufficient for my tastes.

I should reiterate that for a long time, I thought the Benchmark DAC2 was good enough, until I heard the Pontus II, which represented an even better version "good enough". However, my friend with the Qutest didn't think it, the Benchmark or the Pontus were adequate. That's why we decided to try the T+A. He was on a quest for something that could truly satisfy, and I was dragged along for the ride. :D

I'll add that another friend of mine (also a musician like me) and my sons cannot tell the difference between the DACs at all. They all think they sound exactly the same. So go figure! :)
 
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