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End Game Digital (2023)

Or it could be that all of your comparisons have been sighted without any form of control.
Keith
We’ve been over this umpteen times! We all have our methods for deciding what works best for us and mine does include, on occasion, level matched comparisons such that I don’t know what is playing. It is heavily flawed in that it relies on the frailty of aural memory, but serves a purpose when taken with other methods of assessment. Long term enjoyment of music is the best way, for me personally, rather than comparing sounds, even if that can be useful to a limited degree.

Let me be clear that I’m looking for what works best for me and that I am not on some dogma based crusade against large swathes of the hifi industry. It is nice to be able to share one’s impressions with music lovers who may have the same goal but, whilst a contrary opinion can be useful to test any preconceptions one might have, constant and tedious repetitions based on crusading dogma isn’t. If your methodology works for you that’s fine - for you.
 
We’ve been over this umpteen times! We all have our methods for deciding what works best for us and mine does include, on occasion, level matched comparisons such that I don’t know what is playing. It is heavily flawed in that it relies on the frailty of aural memory, but serves a purpose when taken with other methods of assessment. Long term enjoyment of music is the best way, for me personally, rather than comparing sounds, even if that can be useful to a limited degree.

Let me be clear that I’m looking for what works best for me and that I am not on some dogma based crusade against large swathes of the hifi industry. It is nice to be able to share one’s impressions with music lovers who may have the same goal but, whilst a contrary opinion can be useful to test any preconceptions one might have, constant and tedious repetitions based on crusading dogma isn’t. If your methodology works for you that’s fine - for you.

You know he is trolling you right? He makes a repetitive nonsensical sentence that takes little effort, you make a couple of sensical paragraphs with thought and effort in response, he enjoys the rise..its where he gets his kicks from sadly.
 
You know he is trolling you right? He makes a repetitive nonsensical sentence, you make a couple of sensical paragraphs in response, he enjoys the rise..its where he gets his kicks from sadly.
Yep. He's been doing it for years, less so on PFM and after he was banned from the Wam. I can't say that it bothers me that much - I can always switch off and not post here, and I have plenty of other interests in life; perhaps that's what these crusaders want. My response is, when I can be bothered, to respond to the substance of his argument, which is a point of view, albeit rather tedious when copy and pasted ad lib.

There does appear to be a venomous crusade against some in the industry including the likes of Rob Watts. He has written that he is not unaffected by the nastiness that is peddled on ASR, but fortunately for those who use hifi to enjoy music he carries on with his work. Do his products bring about improvements? I dare say we'll all have a different opinions based on our perceptions and the equipment we are using. What is of no use, imho, is preordained judgements by those who think they know everything and don't need to listen. The sad thing about ASR is that there are useful technical discussions with very knowledgable people away from the "reviews" and the jeering, bellowing mob that follow them, and woe betide anyone who points out another view - they get banned!

I'm certainly not against measurements, quite the contrary, but think that they have to be continually balanced by actually using a product and, most importantly, with an open and inquiring mind. That's not to say that we should accept every bit of foo we are presented with; I like the expression a healthy cynicism.
 
If the difference between an Akurate and a Klimax is any kind of indicator then it kind of suggests Organik would be a further improvement - one day I might be able to have the funds to find out....

Regards

Richard

i have a Klimax DS/Organik you have to hear for yourself the enormous gap between Katalyst and Organik.
 
Rob watts crying foul of people speaking nasty on the Web about him. Boo hoo. You should read the internal doc he wrote for chord where he shits all over DCS and their technical approach as a sales strategy for boosting chord dac sales.

If you give it you gotta be able to take it..
 
Rob watts crying foul of people speaking nasty on the Web about him. Boo hoo. You should read the internal doc he wrote for chord where he shits all over DCS and their technical approach as a sales strategy for boosting chord dac sales.

If you give it you gotta be able to take it..
“Internal doc”. Are you certain that was intended for the public domain? If so evidence please, if not the rest of your post isn’t really relevant.
 
I'm 100% sure it wasn't intended for external consumption, not unless he wanted to come off as a massive hypocrite
 
It does state at the very top,
‘Confidential for Chord Electronics internal usage only, not for publication’
It does come across as a hatchet job but I don’t believe he is stating anything that isn’t actually fact, I wonder if he wrote something similar for every competing product?
Keith
 
It will be just as transparent as many, many others but it has some neat features , pleasant aesthetic and is pretty reasonably priced.
Keith
 
“Internal doc”. Are you certain that was intended for the public domain? If so evidence please, if not the rest of your post isn’t really relevant.

I uploaded it once. Interestingly it was internal-only but was made availble by Watts himself. You can find it with your favourite search engine.
 
Rob watts crying foul of people speaking nasty on the Web about him. Boo hoo. You should read the internal doc he wrote for chord where he shits all over DCS and their technical approach as a sales strategy for boosting chord dac sales.

If you give it you gotta be able to take it..

Watts is quite the salesman, up there with Qvortrup, Vereker, Tiefenbrun or Shaw.
But dCS are no angels, pushing for unnecessary external clocks and multiple-box DACs, and their technology is no longer groundbreaking or cutting edge.
 
I'm far from being an expert in digital signal technology, but it seems to me that all of these smaller, specialist DAC makers - Chord, DCS, Meitner, Playback Designs etc - seem to use versions of the same box of tricks. Massive upsampling, mix and match interpolation filters and, frequently, conversion to DSD. I have heard all of these approaches at length, having owned all of the Chord DACs (yes, all of them), and the M Scaler no less than three times, and having spent a week with the Bartok and the Meitner MA3. I also experienced the Playback DSD conversion/upsampling approach with my Nagra Tube DAC, whose digital board is designed by Playback.

My subjective experience suggests all of these approaches are flawed. As always, there are no free lunches in audio or anywhere else, and using technology to produce one "improvement" usually involves a trade off somewhere else. As we know, linear filters measure the best but produce pre- and post-ringing artifacts. Minimum phase filters mitigate this to some extent, but introduce greater post-ringing and other artifacts. Upscaling using the Chord approach - which can be done using Chord's expensive box of tricks, the M Scaler, but can equally be done using any PC - does improve detail but introduces odd tonal artifacts. The same is true of Meitner's and Playback's approach of upscaling and converting to DSD, the latter tending to sound unnaturally smooth and glassy.

Why don't the big chipmakers use these approaches - AKM, ESS, Cirrus, Burr-Brown, Analog Devices etc? They have the resources to do so and I doubt it would be that much more expensive to produce a chip with these capabilities. I suspect they know that there are too many compromises involved and that the result would not sound natural, even though audiophiles are often looking for a distinctive - if unnatural - sound to justify the expense of the DACs.

In my case, having been through so many expensive DACs and remaining unsatisfied, I have "settled" with a Bricasti M3 which, like all of Bricasti's delta-sigma DACs, uses the rather elderly and conventional (and inexpensive) AD1955 chip, but focus their attention on power supplies and implementation. I find this approach sounds more natural than the bespoke FPGA based DACs. I should add that because of the quality of the implementation it also sounds much better than the awful Chinese DAC-of-the month popular on ASR such as the Topping, which I owned briefly.
 


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