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End Game Digital (2023)

But turning a slice of cut black plastic into music isn’t easy either. You add a lot of (innocuous?) distorsion and unwanted noise, then it’s EQ’d, compressed… And yet, it kind of works!
There is no question that digital is very complex but it has so many advantages over noisy analogue. It kind of works too!
 
Do any of them sound like trumpets, drums or violins six feet away in the room? No.

Microphones don't really work the same as ears/brains so a recording can only ever be an approximation of experiencing a performance in real life.

And our brains don't really experience recordings the same way we do live music with all the attendant ritual and I guess what Walter Benjamin would call the 'aura' of the performance.

But none of that stops a good recording being wonderful to listen to. And even, as you suggest, sometimes better than the real thing.
 
But turning a slice of cut black plastic into music isn’t easy either. You add a lot of (innocuous?) distorsion and unwanted noise, then it’s EQ’d, compressed… And yet, it kind of works!
There is no question that digital is very complex but it has so many advantages over noisy analogue. It kind of works too!
Absolutely agree. Mind you it was all we had so we had to “listen through” the defects. For classical the arrival of digital was a blessed, albeit not perfect, relief. It has improved again, is there room or need for future improvement? I’ve no idea but I’m glad that people are trying. Now I find that the source has caught up to show the potential of the extraordinary Quad electrostatics. Even they have been improved, the 2805 and 2812 sounding, imho, much better than the ESL 63. Speakers have now been developed that sound, again imho, better than the Quads at bringing the original performance into the home. Of course, different genres of music present different problems and some genres are easier to create an illusion of than others.

In the last analysis it is an illusion, but these days it is surprising, at least to me, just how good that illusion can be.
 
A hi-fi can only aspire to reproduce the file, with a decent recording and really full-range loudspeakers one can get pretty close.
Keith
Assuming you talking about what you sell, I tried two of those. Great for analysing the recording, not so good at recreating an illusion of the original performance (where there was such a thing of course).
 
There is just the recording Malcs nothing else.
Keith
Not sure who you are replying to, but In your anal world maybe, but some of us use hifi to create a realistic illusion of music in our homes.

Of course it is easier to sell a speaker on the basis that all it has to do is reproduce the recording, particularly as few if any of us have had the benefit of listening over the shoulder of the recording engineer for all our recordings and thus cannot know what the engineer heard. We can, however, refer to our broad experience of how original performances sound and how well our hifi recreates that. Obviously this isn’t a precise art and much depends on the skills of the recording engineers and thus the anal approach is the not the best way to come to a balanced assessment. Needless to say this does not apply to recordings created in the studio for which all bets are off.

You spoke of full range speakers, it is perhaps worth pointing out that kii brought out a bass module to make their full range speaker sound full range and the D&D ime needs the addition of a sub to sound genuinely full range when listening to music as opposed to looking at a FR curve in REW.
 
Before the barrage, I'll elaborate slightly: my system is pretty fast and dynamic (crossover-less, efficient speakers), my mate's top end Naim system, Dave/M-scaler, big PMCs is pretty fast and dynamic, the ATC 100 & 50 systems I've heard are pretty fast and dynamic and go very loud without distortion. Do any of them sound like trumpets, drums or violins six feet away in the room? No.
It's an interesting starting point which most of us will agree with (up to a point)- given the limitations of microphones, the limitation of stereo, the limitations of speaker drivers, the problem of the room - there's no reason why a reproduction of a recording should sound exactly the same as a real muscial event in your room, even if perfectly reproduced.

It's really interesting though that people seems to draw radically opposing conclusions from all of this. Mine is that unless you deliberately want to produce a sound effect, the dac's impact on all of this is nugatory, certainly once you get to state of the art year 2000. Other people seem to feel that a slightly better dac (whatever that means) will somehow bridge that gap. Some say that it proves that accurate reproduction is pointless.

There you have it.
 
You don’t need to know ( and will never know) what the engineer ‘heard’ the only artefact is the file, there is nothing else.
Keith
 
Approaches to system building to play music to our liking is interesting to me, and they are all perfectly valid. I went all out PR&T to begin with, cared very little about soundstage/imaging artifacts (just as well since there weren’t any). But the music on a flat earth system was very enjoyable, particularly suiting my musical taste at the time.

Later I attempted macho-tastic ‘band in the room’ with Dynavector amps, Neat MF9s and big JBL subs. Porcupine Tree were sort of there but never quite enough, partly hampered by an acoustically dreadful room. But it was good for parties and trying to impress your mates.

Then, partly for financial reasons and space, I thought ‘if I get efficient speakers I don’t need big expensive amps’ and by way of various things, ended up where I am now. I prefer this type of system: immediacy, tonality a degree of three-dimensionality (a construct but an agreeable one). It doesn’t sound like live music, for good and for bad, so I go to live music for that.

I’m less source first than I used to be, digital or vinyl, but the better they are, the better.
 
You don’t need to know ( and will never know) what the engineer ‘heard’ the only artefact is the file, there is nothing else.
Keith
Such dogma! For you personally maybe, and that’s perfectly fine but you may be perplexed to learn that some of us use hifi, not to prove a point, , not as a thing in its own isolated right, but to enjoy music in the home. Music which we have experience of in the concert hall or at other venues where it is performed. Perhaps some of us are more interested in music and the use of hifi as a tool to transfer it to our homes. For that we have to decide what works best for us as individuals and, given that we are all different, there is unlikely to be one ideal solution.
 
Approaches to system building to play music to our liking is interesting to me. I went all out PR&T to begin with, cared very little about soundstage/imaging artifacts (just as well since there weren’t any). But the music on a flat earth system was very enjoyable, particularly suiting my musical taste at the time.

Later I attempted macho-tastic ‘band in the room’ with Dynavector amps, Neat MF9s and big JBL subs. Porcupine Tree were sort of there but never quite enough, partly hampered by an acoustically dreadful room. But it was good for parties and trying to impress your mates.

Then, partly for financial reasons and space, I thought ‘if I get efficient speakers I don’t need big expensive amps’ and by way of various things, ended up where I am now. I prefer this type of system: immediacy, tonality a degree of three-dimensionality (a construct but an agreeable one). It doesn’t sound like live music, for good and for bad, so I go to live music for that.

I’m less source first than I used to be, digital or vinyl, but the better they are, the better.
Obviously not the way I’ve gone but that’s the point; we are different in our tastes in music and the way we perceive it. neither of us are wrong in our choices. Thankfully there’s a wide choice of hifi available to cater for all of us. When I went to the Wam show I was impressed by just how wide a range exhibitors own systems were. Some I loved some I hated but they were all good for their owners. In the end it is about getting the most amount of enjoyment from music, at least for me.
 
You don’t need to know ( and will never know) what the engineer ‘heard’ the only artefact is the file, there is nothing else.
Keith

Unless one of your best friends is a recording/mastering engineer, who's studio you've been to, and who brings you 24/96 ProTools bounces of his edits.

Then you actually know all of that. I've also heard his guitars, amps, acoustics, drum kit, percussion, Trumpet, etc.

So I, in the most literal sense, can empirically know what he heard for nearly any normal session. It's actually been a superb way to gauge the naturalness and realism of my systems' presentation. Having literally sat where the mic was, in that exact room, on those exact instruments (and vocalists).

Lastly, a very good system, well set up, can get VERY close.
 
Unless one of your best friends is a recording/mastering engineer, who's studio you've been to, and who brings you 24/96 ProTools bounces of his edits.

Then you actually know all of that. I've also heard his guitars, amps, acoustics, drum kit, percussion, Trumpet, etc.

So I, in the most literal sense, can empirically know what he heard for nearly any normal session. It's actually been a superb way to gauge the naturalness and realism of my systems' presentation. Having literally sat where the mic was, in that exact room, on those exact instruments (and vocalists).

Lastly, a very good system, well set up, can get VERY close.
One of my cousins was a recording engineer. He was much older than me and now long since deceased but looking back I would have loved to sit in on him recording mostly classical music. Sadly our family is quite dispersed and it was only on meeting his son (only two years younger than me) that I learn’t what his father did for a living.
 
One of my cousins was a recording engineer. He was much older than me and now long since deceased but looking back I would have loved to sit in on him recording mostly classical music. Sadly our family is quite dispersed and it was only on meeting his son (only two years younger than me) that I learn’t what his father did for a living.

I'm fortunate that my buddy is still around.

Additionally fortunate that he does Opera singers to orchestra to jazz to small ensemble to modern rock to country to folk. Basically, nearly any music genre that requires physical instruments. Recently he sent me a recording of his Martin D-28, through his Neuman, into his SSL. A guitar I've physically played (very poorly, I might emphasize). Yet another excellent mechanism to assess my own systems for tonality, low level detail, body, spectral balance, etc. I suck them right into Roon, too.
 
interesting thought. I’ve had a look at my history but can’t remember which quartet I was listening to at the time. I don’t think any of them were on Harmoni Mundi though. The point is that with one DAC it was ouch and a face screw and with the other exciting and natural. I did do some comparative measuring in REW at the listening position and no difference to speak of. Perhaps a violin shows the advantage of upscaling and its (alleged for some:)) improvements to timing and transients.

I perceive the improvements as a 'smoother', 'grain-' and 'glare-free' treble, also better perceived 'decay' and overall increased 'clarity'.
 
off topic, but I’m listening to my Tidal Mix of music I don’t often sample and some bloke is singing “Keith don’t go” :D:eek:.

Perhaps I should go back to Qobuz;).
 
I perceive the improvements as a 'smoother', 'grain-' and 'glare-free' treble, also better perceived 'decay' and overall increased 'clarity'.
Those descriptions work for me. You’ve got me wondering if my problem with the Benchmark DAC1 would be helped by feeding it from an m scaler or HQ Player?
 


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