Audiophile Network Switches for Streaming ... really ?
- Thread starter beammeup
- Start date
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
You seem to have only read the first paragraph...
Jitter is a digital error, but one that crosses into the analogue/frequency domain at the time of conversion, so spans both realms.
Should you have any other electrical measurement type that you are aware of to support your belief, I'm all ears.
Jitter is a digital error, but one that crosses into the analogue/frequency domain at the time of conversion, so spans both realms.
Should you have any other electrical measurement type that you are aware of to support your belief, I'm all ears.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Reading the patent summary, they have used shielding and differential data. Not exactly ground breaking stuff, just good engineering practice.
TheFlash
Reiki Audio
I agree and am surprised this is patentable actually, but the solution isn’t the (my) point, it’s Cisco’s recognition there is an issue to be addressed, as I think they know a thing or two about switches.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
I'm amazed that you're surprised that they use exactly the same methods to protect against noise that most other electrical data networking solutions use. It is after all a hybrid system with optical and electrical connections, hardly seems odd they should use tried and tested methods to protect the electrical side of things.
In fact the only noteworthy bit is they got a patent.
But still just handwaving and no measures of electrical interference from networks affecting dacs.
In fact the only noteworthy bit is they got a patent.
But still just handwaving and no measures of electrical interference from networks affecting dacs.
paulc
Registered User
An Ethernet switch is receiving and passing on data from one point to another using one protocol or another. The same data that comes in, goes out, in this case the data happens to be music.
In the IT realm we don’t have any issues with data changing as it moves around the network from source to target via Ethernet switches, transport protocols used are designed to deliver the data as it came in. The switch passes the data on to the next hop unchanged - that is its job. That is the case with a physical switch, a virtual switch, a cheap switch, an expensive switch. People in IT are not buying Cisco switches because the data being delivered to the next hop is any different from other brands…the data is as the data was.
IT facilities don’t have special network switches for different types of data. Can you imagine the issues that would exist if legal, customer, financial data was modified for some of the reasons being mentioned here when we are talking about Audio data…
Having said that, I’ve not listened to any HiFi Switches, but i am inclined to think if people are hearing a difference then the ‘switch’ is not acting as a pure network switch but doing something that offload, changes / manipulates the data then retransmits? A checksum on the data at source / destination should prove that. Is that what’a going on here?
Paul
In the IT realm we don’t have any issues with data changing as it moves around the network from source to target via Ethernet switches, transport protocols used are designed to deliver the data as it came in. The switch passes the data on to the next hop unchanged - that is its job. That is the case with a physical switch, a virtual switch, a cheap switch, an expensive switch. People in IT are not buying Cisco switches because the data being delivered to the next hop is any different from other brands…the data is as the data was.
IT facilities don’t have special network switches for different types of data. Can you imagine the issues that would exist if legal, customer, financial data was modified for some of the reasons being mentioned here when we are talking about Audio data…
Having said that, I’ve not listened to any HiFi Switches, but i am inclined to think if people are hearing a difference then the ‘switch’ is not acting as a pure network switch but doing something that offload, changes / manipulates the data then retransmits? A checksum on the data at source / destination should prove that. Is that what’a going on here?
Paul
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
Sorry mate, you have completely missed the point. No one is claiming that any data is changed, even a little bit (see what I did there).
Rather there is a possibility that some switches might better than others at filtering out of audio band noise in the ethernet cable.
One camp says that this is irrelevant because the ethernet interface in the destination device will completely filter any such noise anyway and the other camp suggests that the interface may not provide 100% filtering and cannot be relied upon. The point of all this being that if RF noise gets into the analogue stage of the DAC it can cause small amounts of IMD which is easily heard.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
Where's the proof that incoming rf at the level passed by a switch causes any increased distortion on the analogue output of a streamer/dac, let alone a specific distortion type at audible levels?
There's not even any solid proof of an audible difference between switches, and you're jumping to speculation about a specific mechanism. Talk about putting the horse before the cart.
First prove a difference exist, then find the cause.
There's not even any solid proof of an audible difference between switches, and you're jumping to speculation about a specific mechanism. Talk about putting the horse before the cart.
First prove a difference exist, then find the cause.
davidsrsb
pfm Member
Assuming that nobody is claiming that the equipment can magically detect a difference between music and a test signal, playing a test tone through the system into a PC with a decent ADC should clearly reveal any changed distortion or added noise due to different switch choice
I don't think that's it's the case that differences will always be measurable. To give an example, I recently tested 5 DACs ranging in price from £10-30k. All have vanishingly low levels of distortion as tested by ASR. But each portrayed music very differently when upsampling mode was used. The distortion test should rule out any distortions in the output stage too.......
paulc
Registered User
I am glad we agree the data payload can’t be changed in a regular Ethernet network. OK, so we are putting the HiFi grade Ethernet switch in to overcome the failings of the interface of the target device, that has been so poorly designed / implemented it lets noise into the electronics / audio path of said device? If so a filter on that target device input would do the same job, why would I bother with all ports on the switch. Your argument sounds plausible, although I’d be disappointed if the manufacturer of the target device had not solved this in the product design. Paul
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
Rather than 'so poorly designed/implemented' I would take a slightly different tack which is that it is rare for anything to be so perfect that it cannot possibly be improved upon. I do agree though that a filter might be a better option than adding in a whole extra switch if the objective is merely to filter noise. Indeed there is at least one firm which sells a passive filter for just such a role. I have not tried one but this one is favourably reported upon (albeit not cheap). It is food for thought though.
https://www.networkacoustics.com/shop/muon-ethernet-filter/
Anh
Naim ghetto blaster
It is not food for thought, this is an issue of your own emotional and commercial investment into a solution to a problem that should not exist, and coupled with that you lack the understanding of network technology that makes your theory very very very implausible.
An ethernet-type network interface would not be promiscious to unwanted AC, this is atleast true for any compliant commercially available network device.
If there is stray AC (noise) traversing the cable and ingresses into an audiophile DAC circuit input to the extent of compromising the accuracy of the DAC output ....
..where is the evidence of this?? And then begs the question, why is your audiophile DAC allowing the noise through?
This is where the conversation of poorly designed/implemented comes into play, why should you spend £3K on switch marketed towards audiophiles to mitigate a problem that is introduced by a DAC that seemingly using a non-compliant implementation of a network input?
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
For the avoidance of doubt, I have no commercial investment in this matter. Please do not try to imply that I have any commercial interest in this.
For sure I have spent my own money on a private (ie retail) purchase of a PhoenixNET switch for my own use and that is the way we indulge our hobby, we hear a difference and we buy a bit of kit.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
And yet many, yourself included IIRC, claim not to hear these differences when listening to a new product in a demo (ie a product whose value you are sceptical of, such as here, or DACs, clocks, cables, etc). I don't want to put words into your, or others' mouths but are you perhaps arguing that it is possible to train yourself out of the natural bias, or counter it by the power of greater understanding?Anh said:
Anh
Naim ghetto blaster
It's not really about if *I* can hear a difference or not. It is about the logical reasoning why we expect *not* to hear any differences.
If a stranger points to the night sky and tells you he can see there are 2 orbiting moons - you can at the very least with your own observations conclude safely that this is not true, you also can reference the peer reviewed science to explain how this is not plausible ... yet the moon spotter is convinced in his own mind that the science is wrong or is limited when compared to his own senses. The same applies to ghost and Elvis sightings.
Are you saying we all need to develop a 'power of greater understanding' for these too?
The burden of proof lies with the those who make these claims, not the other way round. So until they are able to do so, they should keep quiet.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
No. We are told, constantly, that expectation bias (misused term, but the term used on these threads so I'm using it as a matter of convenience) is unconscious. Therefore you can't immunise yourself against it by book learning or 'logical reasoning'. Yet, regularly, those people who argue that any perceived changes are imaginary, because expectation bias, will also claim that they don't hear the differences, because education. It just doesn't work like that.
camverton
pfm Member
“they should keep quiet”. Wow, says it all really, how arrogant.
We need people to think outside the box, admittedly many of their ideas will fall by the wayside, but they can sometimes come up with something that a more focussed mind can develop into a worthwhile development. Do you get that? Or have you descended so far into your dogma that you can no longer see the world clearly?