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Why is a streamer needed in 2022 ?

Nickdubai said:
Do you think that you could tell the difference between your setup and a 30 quid DAC from Amazon inserted into your system in a blind listening test?
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Hey Nick, Im a recent digital convert (Over the last 3 years). I was sceptical so I bought a £60 DAC from Amazon and a £30 Apple TV from ebay. I was immediately impressed by the sound quality. If that combo can impress me then I’m pretty sure many people would be happy with a very modest streaming set up. However, to many of us on pfm, hifi is a hobby and moving up the food chain does give benefits but at a cost. In answer to you question, no you don’t need a streamer. The next question is, do you want one? I listen to Spotify for streaming and am more than happy with my streaming setup as it’s now stands.
 
I love the sound of my FM tuner and Thorens TT. But they are different to the sound I get from my streaming front end.I still appreciate the sound quality of all and don’t even try to pitch them against each other. Each has their virtues and their flaws.
 
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Mick P said:
Chaps

I demoed a Naim NDX2 streamer over the weekend and will confess disappointment. It is convenient to use and you can listen to any rare or obscure bit of music within 30 seconds which makes LPs and CDs look like something from the arc.

However, and this is the pill we have to swallow, the sound quality is still not up to the NAT01 tuner, and nowhere near the Garrard 401 and CDS3 CD player.

I will hold back from buying one until the CDS3 gives up the ghost but even today, in this high tech age, records and CD rule supreme.

I am disappointed because it would have been nice to have been able to get rid of the CD player, record player and tuner and replace it with just one box as well as disposing of all the LPs and CDs.

I have some Kef LSX speakers in Spain which have a built in streamer which is ok but it's not real Hifi, so we have to live with the fact that if quality of sound is important to you, streaming is still a while off until it improves.

Regards

Mick
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Use a better streamer and a better dac.

It is most definitely not a while off its here now but quality varies.
 
Mick P said:
Chaps

I demoed a Naim NDX2 streamer over the weekend and will confess disappointment. It is convenient to use and you can listen to any rare or obscure bit of music within 30 seconds which makes LPs and CDs look like something from the arc.

However, and this is the pill we have to swallow, the sound quality is still not up to the NAT01 tuner, and nowhere near the Garrard 401 and CDS3 CD player.

I will hold back from buying one until the CDS3 gives up the ghost but even today, in this high tech age, records and CD rule supreme.

I am disappointed because it would have been nice to have been able to get rid of the CD player, record player and tuner and replace it with just one box as well as disposing of all the LPs and CDs.

I have some Kef LSX speakers in Spain which have a built in streamer which is ok but it's not real Hifi, so we have to live with the fact that if quality of sound is important to you, streaming is still a while off until it improves.

Regards

Mick
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I also think you need to try a different streamer / DAC.

SteveS1 ditched his CDS3 years ago because his music streaming solution sounded better. I’ve certainly never been blown away by any Naim streamer.
 
For me, as for others, the benefits are mainly convenience and aesthetics. I've got a Bluesound Node which works flawlessly with a good app interface, which I did not need to manufacture myself from components, and doesn't look like a hobby project. If I had plenty of time it would be fun to make a Raspberry Pi streamer in a nice box but at present I don't. Using a spare phone or computer is an ugly solution as it takes up needless space, and doesn't simply work when booting up: I only switch the Node on when I need it (using an external power switch), and I can't get that functionality with a spare phone or computer.

Of course, other people may have different constraints (money, time) than I do, and I don't begrudge them their choices. For my situation, however, a simple and relatively cheap streamer is fine. More expensive streamers look nice, but I can't justify the expense for myself. I do not believe correctly configured streamers make any difference, although there can be differences in internal/external DAC.
 
RoA said:
Cables are so ... 2000. Whatever next? CD's?
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Do any of the "hifi" proportioned streamers come with a remote so you can control the input source without an app or can be set to a default input source?

I had a Naim ND5 XS 2, which I returned for other reasons, but it didn't default to an input determined by me, so anytime I needed to listen to my primary source - Mac Mini - I was forced to use an app.
 
Nickdubai said:
Do you think that you could tell the difference between your setup and a 30 quid DAC from Amazon inserted into your system in a blind listening test? Most of the small companies don't actually manufacture any DAC chips or server components just assemble them from a parts bin that everyone has access to, which may actually result in added noise to make the sound warmer for example which may appeal to some people and often cited as better. I think there is even more hype/mystery over digital than there is even for cables etc.
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That's the kind of question that sometimes makes me wonder whether this is a forum for people who love the way good equipment makes music sound and the emotional connection to the music that that enables. It's such an inane question I'm surprised I'm even responding!

To answer your question, I do not 'think' anything, I 'know' for sure I can because I've done the tests. The difference between my MBP as the source and the LDMS Mini as the source was huge. The difference between the Music Fidelity £100 DAC I have for headphone use and my Lampizator Golden Gate is vast. In my friend's very high end system, the £30k Lampizator Pacific sounded positively broken compared to the £42k Horizon we just demoed last week. I really cannot begin to understand from what perspective you're approach this, in a forum dedicated to creating as much emotional connection to music as well engineered equipment allows, where you seem to be suggseting that because it's zeroes and ones, therefore the equipment cannot make a difference.

Is this what you're claiming; that all digital source equipment is identical and therefore there is no difference in the sound that it reproduces?

I fully agree, that there is something like a law of diminishing returns. And I can quite understand a sense of injustice that may arise from anyone who is able to justify to themselves, spending more than the UK average salary on one piece of hifi equipment (although I can morally and ethically nullify such arguments). What I don't understand is how people can say there is NO difference between DAC A and DAC B, Cable A and Cable B and nor can there ever be a difference because of some fundamental underlying engineering principle. Everything I've ever heard has sounded different in some way. Maybe the difference is nuanced and subtle; often it's not remotely or objectively better or worse, just different and then other times I prefer that difference even if I am the only one who thinks so.

I'm not an engineer so I don't care to engage with the engineering principles behind any of this stuff beyond that of a reasonably well educated and relatively bright individual, but I am not insane (at least I don't believe I am) and so when I listen, and hear, I am very confident that I can hear the difference and make up my own mind as to what I like and don't like.
 
Rather than thinking of "a streamer", it is better IMHO to think about
"what do I want to play"
"how do I want to play it"
"where do I want to listen"
Ultimately a laptop connected to the hifi via usb may be the most versatile in terms of sources (first question), but it doesn't particularly help you to control everythign from the sofa (unless you want a laptop or your err lap and a long piece of wire) nor does it help play music throughout the house. Insofar as one is playing local files even having a laptop/pc leaves one with the question of where to put the files.

Personally I think it's all about ease of use. Even with the sonos system which I use for much of the house I often use spotify connect rather than the native spotify app just because i prefer the interface. And sometimes I use airplay, even to play to a squeezebox client. Personally I do not see any great advantage in tethering some form of windows pc to my hifi.

What I want is a device conected to every music playing system which can be played to by a wide range of sources and which can play all my sources. ideally it should have a bit -perfect output. However I recognise that other people want other things.
 
adamdea said:
Ultimately a laptop connected to the hifi via usb may be the most versatile in terms of sources (first question), but it doesn't particularly help you to control everythign from the sofa
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You can do this if you're using Roon. You need to set up Roon on the laptop or desktop acting as the server, as the core and you can then control that via the Roon app on your phone or tablet without the need to have the laptop on your knee.
 
flutteringwow said:
Yes, been there done that, and spent far too long using a computer as a source, now have a dedicated streamer and reaping the SQ benefits.

Your first post however was pure intentional bate, as you already had your 'belief' structure ingrained as shown with your posts that followed. You merely posted to start yet another debate about the same things that are talked about daily disguised as an 'innocent' inquisitive post.
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Didn't mean to, just trying to understand what people believe it is that makes a difference in the digital chain in a roundabout way I am open to all suggestions and love passion people have for their own particular solutions..
 
Nickdubai said:
Didn't mean to, just trying to understand what people believe it is that makes a difference in the digital chain in a roundabout way I am open to all suggestions and love passion people have for their own particular solutions..
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Lol, sure.
 
geetee1972 said:
That's the kind of question that sometimes makes me wonder whether this is a forum for people who love the way good equipment makes music sound and the emotional connection to the music that that enables. It's such an inane question I'm surprised I'm even responding!

To answer your question, I do not 'think' anything, I 'know' for sure I can because I've done the tests. The difference between my MBP as the source and the LDMS Mini as the source was huge. The difference between the Music Fidelity £100 DAC I have for headphone use and my Lampizator Golden Gate is vast. In my friend's very high end system, the £30k Lampizator Pacific sounded positively broken compared to the £42k Horizon we just demoed last week. I really cannot begin to understand from what perspective you're approach this, in a forum dedicated to creating as much emotional connection to music as well engineered equipment allows, where you seem to be suggseting that because it's zeroes and ones, therefore the equipment cannot make a difference.

Is this what you're claiming; that all digital source equipment is identical and therefore there is no difference in the sound that it reproduces?

I fully agree, that there is something like a law of diminishing returns. And I can quite understand a sense of injustice that may arise from anyone who is able to justify to themselves, spending more than the UK average salary on one piece of hifi equipment (although I can morally and ethically nullify such arguments). What I don't understand is how people can say there is NO difference between DAC A and DAC B, Cable A and Cable B and nor can there ever be a difference because of some fundamental underlying engineering principle. Everything I've ever heard has sounded different in some way. Maybe the difference is nuanced and subtle; often it's not remotely or objectively better or worse, just different and then other times I prefer that difference even if I am the only one who thinks so.

I'm not an engineer so I don't care to engage with the engineering principles behind any of this stuff beyond that of a reasonably well educated and relatively bright individual, but I am not insane (at least I don't believe I am) and so when I listen, and hear, I am very confident that I can hear the difference and make up my own mind as to what I like and don't like.
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I wasn't trying to upset or question your belief/passion , just trying to understand what the vast and huge differences are in the digital chain...If I take my turntable as an example and I tap/rap the support that it is on I can hear it faintly through the speakers which probably means that I am hearing much small vibrations all the time so better isolation might be one solution, what is it in th digital chain equivalent to this that make the difference to replay ...
 
adamdea said:
Ultimately a laptop connected to the hifi via usb may be the most versatile in terms of sources (first question), but it doesn't particularly help you to control everythign from the sofa (unless you want a laptop or your err lap and a long piece of wire)
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As above, Roon, Audirvāna, Apple Music, whatever, just use your phone as a remote.
 
Personally for me, it is as adamdea above mentioned, about ease of use overall. Sure, I want great sound too, and that should hopefully be expected for the most part. After messing around with iTunes libraries, laptops, Vortex Box, Pi's etc., and always playing around with this or that, trying to "fix" little bugs, I gave up. Yes, some of them had their merits, cheaper, etc., but I just got tired of the faff. To top it off, I am not all that computer savvy, so it was more work than pleasure.

I bought a Naim Uniti1 a bit over 10 years ago, because of the limited space I had for gear etc., and the thing just sounded great, and most of all, just worked day in, day out. Was it the best? No, but I could always depend on it, and the thing still works to this day and sounds great and still does service in a bedroom. Shame it cannot still be upgraded or I doubt that I would have moved on. But I replaced it with a Naim XS3 integrated and ND5XS2. A little bit of an uptick in sound quality, and cheaper for both of those than the Naim Uniti Star/Nova, and I didn't care for all the whiz-bang display-why when you are controlling it on an iPad, nor did I care about some fancy volume knob that I would never use. Again though, this setup just works, rarely ever any faff. Turn it on, listen to music, simples.

In my main system, I have a Lindemann Limetree Bridge2 connected to my LinnenberG DAC/pre, and again, just faff free, sounds great, and just works. It also opened my eyes a bit to just how much in this type of setup, the DAC itself seems to be the important bit, or more so for my ears than the streamer itself. But like anything, that all can be debated and talked to death. In the end, again, I just want something that works and that I do not have to tinker with. Again, simple. And no doubt, one can certainly do all that with much cheaper solutions, or other options, just depends on the perceived level of sound quality each individual might want to pursue.

The other thing is, in listening to the Naim streamers, I find the pricing to me, very appalling, and I would surely burn in Naim Hell for saying such a thing. I do not mean to bash Naim here, as I have typically had various Naim systems and Naim bits in my systems for over 30 years or so now. But I really struggled to hear any overall benefit between the ND5XS2 and the next step up Naim streamers, it made no sense. Live and learn, but again, everyone's mileage/beliefs/thought processes will vary. Sorry for the round about ramble, I've been awake far too long, and still have 2/3's of my day left to go....:(
 
Alex S said:
As above, Roon, Audirvāna, Apple Music, whatever, just use your phone as a remote.
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Yes obviously you can do that. But here's the thing. Now you are using your phone to control it, you have wifi and that means there is actually no need for the pc/laptop to be wired to the hifi. It can be anywhere in the house (where you can't hear or see it). All you need is a low power cheap client attached to the hifi and hey presto you have multi room. There are so many ways to skin the cat.
 
Now then, do I need a high quality purpose built streamer? I do use a node 2i occasionally for Tidal but most of my listening is from a Mac Mini running JRiver and controlled by JRemote from my chair. The reason I’m using JRiver is that I can browse my ripped files any way I choose and not the way Innuos, Auralic etc etc choose for me and from what I can see most of that built in software is best suited for non classical music although the Aurrender looks reasonable. What happens if I spend thousands on a purpose built streamer and find they change the software in such a way that it becomes useless for me, in the way that Sonos did some years back.

For me, the user interface is important so I’m refraining from extracting the last gram of “potential” audio goodness. In any case, will it make any worthwhile difference when used digital out into an m-scaler and TT2? I suspect not enough to worry about, although I remain open minded. Even if it did sound a bit better would that compensate for loss of usability in controlling the system? Almost certainly not for me personally, and I have tried using the Node to play my ripped files. Oh dear, if I had to use that I think I’d wish I’d stuck with getting CDs of the shelf to play!
 
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