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I know it’s all been said before but this is madness ….

So when I swap in and out a particular interconnect/speaker cable/power cord and hear the same effect each time, it's just my mind playing tricks? My mind creates a distinct aural impression for each brand of cable I try?

Wild, isn't it? Audio things having sounds is actually a lot more like telepathy, and if you hear something the same way as another listener earlier or later than he but go on to share the same descriptors unbeknownst, it's temporal distortion too.

I intend to take this expectation bias - whether it's ever quantified to audio or not - seriously and promote it to clairvoyance. One should be cautious here not to diminish the implications, after all.

Have you ever considered that it's perhaps "expectation bias" that causes you to not hear the changes that cables make?

I used to think it was a commenter's reframing what I said but then I realized it was expectation bias.
 
My two pennyworth is that, however much, or little difference cables make will in any case be dwarfed by a) issues with the speaker/listening room interface and b) the acuity of most pfmers hearing. So it's a kind of 'two bald men squabbling over a comb' situation for the most part.

As a *generalisation* That tends to be my view, also, TBH. But I suspect people could find exceptions. I stopped being surprised by what some people market and flog many years ago. :) So I'd not use the "in any case" but "most cases" where "most" comes fairly close to "all", but not quite.
 
So when I swap in and out a particular interconnect/speaker cable/power cord and hear the same effect each time, it's just my mind playing tricks? My mind creates a distinct aural impression for each brand of cable I try?

Have you ever considered that it's perhaps "expectation bias" that causes you to not hear the changes that cables make?

WRT your first question: Possibly. I can't rule it out simply from what you say.

When I've tred comparison tests by listening I keep finding the sound *does* change. The problem wrt cables is that this seems to be due to my ears/room changing. Given that, I've only occasionally decided that a change of cable probably had an effect or that I felt a reason worth choosing one cable rather than the other. So I just stop worrying and enjoy the music.
 
As an aside, I remember Paul Miller in Hifi choice conducting a group test of CD Players some years ago. When the session ended he brought out a recently released Teac VRDS player. He called it a black chunky piece of kit. The reactions from the panel was that it a was a strong performer with prominent bass underpinning the music. After they left he listened to it again with the same music. His conclusion was it was actually light in the bass and wondered whether the appearance swayed the panel.
I suspect this is common place, and have tried to make allowances for this ever since.
 
I find that The best approach is to find kit you like the look of and can afford, demo it if possible, then convince yourself it sounds fantastic (same if can’t demo it). It’s not as crazy as you might think. The cosmetic aspect of buying things is a big part of buying cars, why would it be different for hifi gear? We think we want hifi but really we want stuff that we like and think others will like too. Let’s face it, there isn’t much out there that sounds completely rubbish so why get hung up on the fi? ( Did I really just say that in a hifi forum :))
 
@NickofWimbledon , sorry I'm not being deliverately evasive about your request: Please consider this response in the context of my last post in (faux) reply to Jim. That is all relevant to the question of whether one might reasonably conclude (as a strict epistemic propostion) that cables "sound" differenet based on anecotal report or even a difference in your own listening experience.


None of this necessarily has any bearign at all on the question of how anyone should enjoy their hobby (unless the epistemic question really matters to you). You would probably be amazed how little interest I have in that question: I'm an anarcho-libertarian in that regard. If you really want my advice as you request then it's all summarised in the signature. [but feel free to ignore. In fact please bear in mind when reading the following that it's a free country and I actually have no desire to tell anyone else how to live their life. But you did ask (more than once)] - let go of the idea that you are a sound quality evaluation device.

If the consequences of this proposition require unpacking they are IMHO as follows: don't assume that fluctuations in your listening experience are caused by changes in the kit; don't assume that changing your hifi is the best way to improve your enjoyment of music; don't feel obliged to give yourself regular retail based dopamine hits; if you make a decision, live with it yourself but dont feel obliged to justify it to others; enjoy the music- but if you stop enjoyign the music, at least consider going and doing something else until you start enjoying it again; accept that your hobby is just a hobby; remember that no one actually needs a really fancy hifi to appreciate music; be honest you just like hifi kit; live with it.


That's just about exactly what I asked for!

I am not trying to start a debate on the meaning of 'sound', 'difference' or any of the other key words on this thread.

I am less trusting than many about how complete our understanding of what and how to measure and model how we hear a hifi play music, and I accept that ears will be the tool in use so must be relevant to a pre-purchase assessment, but that doesn't mean I trust my ears (or anyone's) implicitly. And none of this changes the fact that my over-arching aim is to enjoy music as much as I can - I don't know much about retail endorphins, but music...

In short (-ish), we don't look very far apart on most of this.

What did you make of my possible explanation for why some people report some interconnects really are better? No Woo or psychology required!
 
I suspect that these cable type threads can become contentious because I (and perhaps we) who are 'noticing deeply' the effects of component changes have a tendency to amplify our observations, disproportionate to the stimuli. (Black and White, Game changer, Night and Day). A tiny change can be identified as having a value that is negotiable from Insignificant to Mind Blowing depending on the predisposition of the listener. That creates vulnerability and with enough ascribed value, could lead someone to spending very largely to yield tiny or insignificant changes.
 
I'm going to attempt to boil one side of the argument (as I read it) down to its essence and where that seems to leave us:

Measurements tell us that most electronics beyond a pretty basic level of design are essentially competent and blameless, bar a few outliers. So there is not much to choose between electronic sources and amplifiers, so spending above a notional threshold where this competence can be taken as a given, is not justified by the performance.

Measurements tell us that, once above a nominal cost threshold, all cables measure similarly and will be sufficient, so spending any budget beyond that necessary for a basically functional cable is unwarranted by the performance.

This seems to rule out any spending beyond, effectively, budget equipment and eliminates any justification for upper or high end equipment on performance grounds. Spending beyond these modest requirements is therefore only justifiable on other grounds, such as functionality, aesthetics, build quality, reliability, etc.

It's a very utilitarian approach, though not really a Utilitarian one. Utilitarianism does seem to take into account other aspects such as pleasure and happiness, and good to others (such as for example, creating employment for providers and makers of goods).

The corollary to all this is that any perceived benefit beyond what the measurements imply is argued to be down to, as Keith suggests, 'cognitive biases'. (Not necessarily 'expectation bias', which is a misapplied term for a quite specific form of experimental bias but it's crept into the objectivist lexicon so we're stuck with it, and its meaning in this context is generally understood so hey-ho).
I agree, more or less, with all of that.

Where this takes us isn't clear. It certainly takes a lot of the joy out of the hifi using experience, and replaces it with something like resigned satisfaction. Given that the whole point is the pursuit of pleasure and emotional feedback, that feels like it should run counter to the whole point of hifi ownership.
This part I strongly disagree with. Knowing that my components (speakers excepted) and cables perform beyond the limits of audibility, I can focus entirely on listening without constantly worrying that I might be missing out on some nuance that would be revealed if only I made one more "upgrade." You call it resigned satisfaction, I call it relaxed enjoyment. If your joy is derived more from tinkering with cables than from the music, then the sentiment you express makes sense. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, but it represents limited point of view, and ascribing it to everybody would be a mistake.
 
Let’s suppose for the sake of argument that any effect of cables or ‘foo’ is entirely down to suggestion, or expectation. According to the above, it would seem that the perception of the user is no less real to them. So they really are getting a better sounding system, according to their perception.

If so, then the only valid question is whether the improvement in perceived performance is worth the cost. If the improvements are commensurate with a £10k amp upgrade, say, then a price if £10k would be justifiable, whatever the item in question, surely?
Your argument assumes that the effect is predictable and repeatable when in actuality it is quite fickle. If there is in fact no real change, then the improvement you think you hear one day might be gone the next. If the objectively measured performance of an amp, say, varied in this way, I doubt you would justify spending £10k on it. I certainly would not.
 
@mansr - something odd may be happening, but I find myself agreeing with some recent posts of yours too. However, I'd quibble with the last one.

In the real world, few things are completely random or wholly repeatable. How much I notice that I like music on my main hi-fi more than on my Naim Atom will vary, and all the other human effects (is the sun shining, do I prefer it because I 'know' it's better, do I need a loo &c.) apply. However, the result that I enjoy the big system more is very repeatable, even if I can't prove it and my testimony is of limited use as evidence to anyone.

As for the idea that ignoring how good your kit is whenever possible and just listening to music - yes! If you have found consistently that tinkering is a waste of your time and that knowledge helps you listen on peace, I am pleased. If @Sue Pertwee-Tyr enjoys it more when confident in the knowledge that he/ she has checked whether they can easily get more music off the record and found they can't, I am pleased by that too. To me, both approaches can produce non-ideal outcomes, but what you are both reporting is that it is working for you.

And, no, I wouldn't buy an amplifier whose performance varied as much as my perceptions do on almost anything.
 
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My two pennyworth is that, however much, or little difference cables make will in any case be dwarfed by a) issues with the speaker/listening room interface and b) the acuity of most pfmers hearing. So it's a kind of 'two bald men squabbling over a comb' situation for the most part.
Another way of looking at this is that if this really was about people detectign minute differences due to hitherto undreamt of processes, all the excitement would be amongst young people, tailing off rapidly above 30, after people ceased to be able to catch these details any more.
 


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