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UptoneAudio EtherREGEN

kleinbje said:
You would be dead wrong, very well executed. Thanks for playing. Oh remind me, which ones did you double blind test??
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@mansr is perfectly right according to my approach to assembling audio systems. In my experience it's perfectly possible to make digital audio transport transparent, inexpensive and completely fungible through the absence of what to me are imperfections. That's my deliberate approach and it leaves me other areas such as loudspeakers where I listen to the music I like and find what has the fewest imperfections that matter to me and select what pleases my ear.

If you approach the hobby differently and like the idea that it's fine for digital audio transport to change how the audio sounds that's OK and I won't be rude about it. You will find others here who share your view. But you will also find others who do things differently, and perhaps we should try and coexist without the "thanks for playing" put-down.
 
kleinbje said:
I have continually been amazed when power, vibrational(except spinning discs), digital, and NETWORK changes alter and sometimes improve my sound. I recently switched my Roon server from an Imac to a Nucleus+, did not hear the sound difference I was hoping for, though the upgrade was not initiated for sound but functionality, convenience, placement. Some network and digital changes that were revelatory were adding new Ethernet cables. Amazon had the Audioquests, so on a whim I grabbed enough cinnamon cables to connect modem/router/computer and one Vodka(later upgraded to a Shunyata Sigma) from network satellite to my Cary streamer. I just had to drive them 5 minutes down the road to return them, not even box them, too easy to resist. They didn't go back, wow, they had very meaningful improvement in my system(to the poster who commented about American forums being kinder to network discussion, not so much, see SHF). I was pretty much all analog, but the time on Tidal/Q has increased, I explored more now. I actually played some of the tracks the audio reviewers gawk about. I was really surprised given the asynchronous nature and re-clocking of ethernet, but hell if I wasn't the fool for waiting so long to have better music. An analog square-wave is subject to physics whether in a digital or analog circuit apparently. I then tried to improve the power supplies, I previously found used Bolder and Teddy supplies for my squeezbox touches, but could never be sure of their influence. Now that my system was revealing enough to hear a damn ethernet cable I purchased a HDPlex300 for the Nucleus+ and my router. The improvement was clear, spatially, cymbals sounded like cymbals, bass became very defined, and more importantly I listened more. Next I added an Ifi Elite to power the Network satellite connected to my streamer, thought I heard a difference for the better but unsure. I then switched the generic power chord for the Ifi for a Cardas Clear I had picked up second hand a many years ago for the bedroom system. Yes, now we were getting somewhere, best digital sound I had ever herd by far. It even eclipsed some(few) records, a complete shocker. So the question is do I need a switch between the satellite and the streamer. I would favor EE as I heard the Etherregen gets hot, and I already have some tubes in here. Throwing another box in the signal chain goes against what I believe in, but so did fancy digital cables, expensive network cables, and a overbuilt power supply for a damn router!!

Jeff
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And that is what this hobby is all about, isn't it? Changing components, tweaking this, adjusting that. Sometimes a setback is experienced, sometimes a gain is noticed, but all is easily reversed should something become unpreferable.

The fact that over 99% of etherregen customers keep their units with a 30 day no haggle return policy sheds light on its validity. I ordered one.
 
Based on my understanding of TCP/IP I don't see how one correctly functioning ethernet cable can sound different to any other correctly functioning ethernet cable. If it's not providing an error-free bit-perfect connection it's broken. Luckily even the cheapest £3 patch cable from Amazon should be fine if it's properly constructed.

But I'm not sure what the point is of challenging the claims made in this thread. It just turns into a rather dull cyclical thread that doesn't change anyone's mind.
 
paulfromcamden said:
Based on my understanding of TCP/IP I don't see how one correctly functioning ethernet cable can sound different to any other correctly functioning ethernet cable. If it's not providing an error-free bit-perfect connection it's broken. Luckily even the cheapest £3 patch cable from Amazon should be fine if it's properly constructed.
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Agreed. And I am one who was blinded by earlier publications like Julian Hirsch's , who would happily recommend a Sony over a Pass Labs amplifier if it measured less distortion. And then I actually listened. And then fell into the "wire is wire" camp, and tried to find capacitance and resistance for various speaker cables before buying them, and then I actually listened to them. Boy my eyes were opened.

The cheapest lines of low inductance and resistance copper, implying proper construction, connecting the amplifier to the speaker should be no more inferior than the "fancy" cables, but they don't sound the same.

So does one just want the music to "work" ? if so why spend more than 100 (pounds or euro or dollars)? It will work just fine. You would even be able to tell which song/band/instrument was playing, right?

But again, in regard to ethernet, it is not about the bits, it is about the reduction of electrical noise. Yes the signals still get through to the printer, or the computer program, or the medical equipment ecg signals, but in all those applications 1/10 of 1% is not noticeable, or important, but our ears are more sensitive than the machines. And no, I don't yet have any ethernet cables other than the ones I made myself, but I plan on experimenting soon. I can't deny the hundreds of posts from those who claim they have. Common sense says they all can't be delusional.

I read a post from a 40 year network/software engineer a few days ago (I wish I bookmarked it, can't remember the forum) but he claimed the exact same thing you just stated above, and surprising after a week he actually reposted and apologized, as he took a few different switches (TP Link, Cisco and another) and did actually hear differences between them.

If someone has some time on their hand this may be enlightening:


paulfromcamden said:
But I'm not sure what the point is of challenging the claims made in this thread. It just turns into a rather dull cyclical thread that doesn't change anyone's mind.
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On both sides, agreed. It reminds me of those who are on opposite sides of the vaccine debate. Or is it facts and not a debate. o_O
 
watts said:
... in regard to ethernet, it is not about the bits, it is about the reduction of electrical noise. Yes the signals still get through to the printer, or the computer program, or the medical equipment ecg signals, but in all those applications 1/10 of 1% is not noticeable, or important, but our ears are more sensitive than the machines. And no, I don't yet have any ethernet cables other than the ones I made myself, but I plan on experimenting soon. I can't deny the hundreds of posts from those who claim they have. Common sense says they all can't be delusional. ...
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I have done my share of making kit to move digital audio around and there is always noise on a digital interface to a DAC. The engineers do know that. We're not as ignorant as some marketing people would proclaim.

For normal amounts of noise it's perfectly possible to design a DAC that is audibly immune. And the kit I had in the lab was easily capable of verifying that even in the late 1980s and early 1990s when I was working with digital audio.

But even more practically, I was able to verify recently by listening (as I detailed earlier in this thread) that my current none-too-expensive DAC is immune to whatever noise my (much reviled as noisy) Raspberry Pi is putting into in on its USB interface (accompanying Ethernet-originated digital audio). And immune to a level where digital noise is actually inaudible with the volume control set more than 20 dB above normal level.

So I am not in agreement that it's inevitable that digital system noise is audible. I also do not say the opposite - that it's inevitably inaudible. However what I do say, from experience, is that it's demonstrably possible for digital transport noise of normal level to be perfectly well rejected by a DAC leaving me free to choose any reasonable digital transport components without concern. This does not contradict what others write. But I know practically that I can achieve better (in my terms) than is reported.
 
John Phillips said:
@mansr is perfectly right according to my approach to assembling audio systems. In my experience it's perfectly possible to make digital audio transport transparent, inexpensive and completely fungible through the absence of what to me are imperfections. That's my deliberate approach and it leaves me other areas such as loudspeakers where I listen to the music I like and select what has the fewest imperfections that matter to me and please my ear.

If you approach the hobby differently and like the idea that it's fine for digital audio transport to change how the audio sounds that's OK and I won't be rude about it. You will find others here who share your view. But you will also find others who do things differently, and perhaps we should try and coexist without the "thanks for playing" put-down.
Click to expand...

I post about enjoying my system, and the items I spent a lot of time researching, auditioning, as well as -especially in the past 2 years -hard earned pay on(ER Physician), that have brought more musicality and enjoyment to my system. Those component being incredibly relevant to this thread. Someone posts without providing any evidence, no reasoning, just negativity about me, my system and my post. You sir completely ignore that, you think that behavior is acceptable on these forums? To demean another human and their hard work for no apparent reason. I don't quite understand why you jump to aid a person who attacked a stranger and calls him and his system faulty, with no explanation. Read my post again, which words did I write that invite someone to say my system is faulty and my time and money was wasted with no other information? How is that helpful to the discussion sir? Are you kidding, calling my Naim 500 level system faulty is not a put down? I have spent over 20 years refining my system, measuring, moving my Giya G3's around the room, swapping cables, power supplies, etc, now I'm thrilled. Someone says my experience and the work I put in is all crap and my system is faulty. Its just like something our idiot facist (thank god-agnostic here) ex-president would do criticize with no evidence, reasoning, or thoughtful process. Get with the program buddy, he was trolling me and got his due. Reducing noise and distortion, especially in the temporal plane, which in my mind is what good vibration reduction(hrs/sra), cabling, and power supplies are capable of doing. They will let you hear differences between the craziest things, you know Brinkmann and his loose screw. Now buzz off unless you have some constructive on topic things to say. I truly love this hobby, and am hearing a UK first pressing of Electric Ladyland in a whole new light after some upgrades(still ripping through the collection, to hear all the old favorites with the new stuff) while snow is falling on the Eve of Christmas. The first one my 3 year old daughter will truly get excited for. For this 47 year old jew(Catholic wife, we enjoy it all) thats about as good life gets. Jimi really sounds like he could chop it down with the edge of his hand. Merry Christmas and seriously be safe and be well.
 
Two guys sat on a sofa imagining they're hearing things.

Hers a network engineer on the topic.

 
watts said:
Agreed. And I am one who was blinded by earlier publications like Julian Hirsch's , who would happily recommend a Sony over a Pass Labs amplifier if it measured less distortion. And then I actually listened. And then fell into the "wire is wire" camp, and tried to find capacitance and resistance for various speaker cables before buying them, and then I actually listened to them. Boy my eyes were opened.

The cheapest lines of low inductance and resistance copper, implying proper construction, connecting the amplifier to the speaker should be no more inferior than the "fancy" cables, but they don't sound the same.

So does one just want the music to "work" ? if so why spend more than 100 (pounds or euro or dollars)? It will work just fine. You would even be able to tell which song/band/instrument was playing, right?

But again, in regard to ethernet, it is not about the bits, it is about the reduction of electrical noise. Yes the signals still get through to the printer, or the computer program, or the medical equipment ecg signals, but in all those applications 1/10 of 1% is not noticeable, or important, but our ears are more sensitive than the machines. And no, I don't yet have any ethernet cables other than the ones I made myself, but I plan on experimenting soon. I can't deny the hundreds of posts from those who claim they have. Common sense says they all can't be delusional.

I read a post from a 40 year network/software engineer a few days ago (I wish I bookmarked it, can't remember the forum) but he claimed the exact same thing you just stated above, and surprising after a week he actually reposted and apologized, as he took a few different switches (TP Link, Cisco and another) and did actually hear differences between them.

If someone has some time on their hand this may be enlightening:



On both sides, agreed. It reminds me of those who are on opposite sides of the vaccine debate. Or is it facts and not a debate. o_O
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Bravo, and this is someone who used two walk two and a 1/2 miles to the public library every weekend at age 11 to read all the Stereo Review new and back issues, not to mention Consumer Reports, and any other publication that talked about stereos. With my first systems I could not hear cable differences, even my first hifi system, Denon Receiver, Paradigm speakers, thought people were crazy ,ODIN?? The better my system the easier it is to hear and more importantly describe differences. Too many times with upgrades it would be different but not necessarily better or worse. The ability to describe the difference in components not to mention hearing them is an acquired skill like being able to describe a whiskey(y) or a wine. It makes picking out the best pressings much easier, was comparing the German and UK, The Beatles.
 
I haven't auditioned cables in over 15 years, the idea that they might make a difference, isn't even on my radar anymore. Been there, done that, fooled myself, un fooled myself with a bunch of abx testing.

As long as they reach between my gear and have the right plug fitment on them and are electrically suitable they'll do for me. So that's basic starquad xlrs at about £5pm and 6mm stranded speaker cable.

This would usually be the point where you question my ears or the quality of my components to tell me I'm missing out due to an insufficiency elsewhere.
 
kleinbje said:
I post about enjoying my system, and the items I spent a lot of time researching, auditioning, as well as -especially in the past 2 years -hard earned pay on(ER Physician), that have brought more musicality and enjoyment to my system. Those component being incredibly relevant to this thread. Someone posts without providing any evidence, no reasoning, just negativity about me, my system and my post. You sir completely ignore that, you think that behavior is acceptable on these forums? To demean another human and their hard work for no apparent reason. I don't quite understand why you jump to aid a person who attacked a stranger and calls him and his system faulty, with no explanation. Read my post again, which words did I write that invite someone to say my system is faulty and my time and money was wasted with no other information? How is that helpful to the discussion sir? Are you kidding, calling my Naim 500 level system faulty is not a put down? I have spent over 20 years refining my system, measuring, moving my Giya G3's around the room, swapping cables, power supplies, etc, now I'm thrilled. Someone says my experience and the work I put in is all crap and my system is faulty. Its just like something our idiot facist (thank god-agnostic here) ex-president would do criticize with no evidence, reasoning, or thoughtful process. Get with the program buddy, he was trolling me and got his due. Reducing noise and distortion, especially in the temporal plane, which in my mind is what good vibration reduction(hrs/sra), cabling, and power supplies are capable of doing. They will let you hear differences between the craziest things, you know Brinkmann and his loose screw. Now buzz off unless you have some constructive on topic things to say. I truly love this hobby, and am hearing a UK first pressing of Electric Ladyland in a whole new light after some upgrades(still ripping through the collection, to hear all the old favorites with the new stuff) while snow is falling on the Eve of Christmas. The first one my 3 year old daughter will truly get excited for. For this 47 year old jew(Catholic wife, we enjoy it all) thats about as good life gets. Jimi really sounds like he could chop it down with the edge of his hand. Merry Christmas and seriously be safe and be well.
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Oh dear - John's post was well balanced.
 
Putting your deck on a good rigid stand makes perfect sense no-one here doubts that. Likewise finding the best spot for your speakers is a given.

But all that is a world away from believing in ssd psu fairies, that an uptone regen has an audible effect or that a better switch is even possible.
 
sq225917 said:
I haven't auditioned cables in over 15 years, the idea that they might make a difference, isn't even on my radar anymore. Been there, done that, fooled myself, un fooled myself with a bunch of abx testing.

As long as they reach between my gear and have the right plug fitment on them and are electrically suitable they'll do for me. So that's basic starquad xlrs at about £5pm and 6mm stranded speaker cable.

This would usually be the point where you question my ears or the quality of my components to tell me I'm missing out due to an insufficiency elsewhere.
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Hey man, if you like your system and enjoy listening to music, I think that's great. To my ears in my system, cables have dramatically improved my enjoyment. Got nothing bad to say sorry. If you're in my neck of the woods and want to listen to fancy cables, hit me up.
 
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sq225917 said:
Putting your deck on a good rigid stand makes perfect sense no-one here doubts that. Likewise finding the best spot for your speakers is a given.

But all that is a world away from believing in ssd psu fairies, that an uptone regen has an audible effect or that a better switch is even possible.
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Welcome to the world of clock noise, and ground plane noise contamination.
 
sq225917 said:
Putting your deck on a good rigid stand makes perfect sense no-one here doubts that. Likewise finding the best spot for your speakers is a given.

But all that is a world away from believing in ssd psu fairies, that an uptone regen has an audible effect or that a better switch is even possible.
Click to expand...

You should try an EtherRegen. I tried one on 1 month trial expecting it to do nothing and to return it. The effect was so marked I ended up ordering a second for a second system.
 
Welcome to the world of Imagined reduction in noise that has never been shown to correlate to the output signal.

Sure, some really shit dacs a long time ago had visible usb frame rate noise on the input, strangely, not correlated on the output though...

Neither A usb or ethernet connected dac / streamer use the incoming data to clock the conversion, it's just binned off as they enter a buffer. That's why no one can show a reduction in jitter using an etherregen or anything else from that company.

Duckworp, obviously you believe in magic, I dont.
 
Well, I bought a Cisco 2960 a while back with no expectation of improving my audio and simply because I needed more Ethernet outlets than my router provides to hard wire my streamers and other gear. Much to my surprise it did improve my digital sound and also the TV picture, so it's doing something right!
 
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