HORNS THE ULTIMATE HIFI SPEAKERS ?

[iansr]

That's a JW estimate, I bet you still haven't unpacked your Paradise...

Ouch! It’s in a storage container along with a lot of my other hi fi gear ATM. I promise you it will all come together next year in a fab listening space. There’s probably a load of Paradise upgrades you will tell me that I should have . . .

 

[pocketkitchen]

Never heard a Horn that didn’t instantly sound like a Horn.

At their very best capable of sounding dynamic and impressive but never very musically involving and rhythmically indecisive and vague.

The kind of money required to get even a mediocre performance means horns are the reserve of those very wealthy and lacking taste.

More an avant garde art installation than a serious attempt at music reproduction.

Obviously I don’t know what you’ve heard before but a friend of mine has a pair of very large Altecs with compression hf, horn mid and 15” bass units driven by a Technics Pre/Power amp, which is not a great amp at all in my view and the thing it does best is rhythm and drive. I’m sure they were very expensive in their day but the kit he uses upstream is anything but and it’s one of the most involving systems I’ve heard, along with an ability to play loud. I’ve only ever heard rock music through it as that’s his taste, mind.

I’ve certainly heard a few shitty ones, but I’m not sure I’d tar them all with the same brush.

 

[John]

I've had horny speakers since 2008.

Joe

I had obtained System 1000’s a few months prior to getting my DMT 15’s. When I saw them listed on eBay I was hoping you weren’t going to bid on them. It turned out no one else did and I drove 180 miles the next morning to grab them before the seller changed his mind. His Mom helped me load them into to my van and away I drove off with a big grin on my face.

I don’t know how I mustered the strength to carry them into my living room, but I did. They replaced my beloved Quad ESL’s which I had been using since 1986.

Joe, your daughter standing next to your Tannoy’s must be in college by now. I was thinking Vuk must have been the first pfm’er to use Tannoy’s.

 

[Joe P]

John,

Aye, I remember your Tannoy journey, too. Are the DMT 15s still rockin’ and a-rollin’?

Joe

 

[Steve 57]

Hi Steve, well you will be able to see the ES 290s because they will be actually handed over to me at the meeting . However due to radical alteration work on our house it will be late summer 2022 before the speaker system is up and running.

Thats a shame Ian, would have been great to hear them, although from my experence it's not an instant thing to get a horn system set up and balanced..
I went through my horn phase 15 years ago, various vitavox drivers and open baffle bass. Still got a box of vintage compression drivers somewhere.
I moved on to beyma tpl150 not long after they came out and have not looked back, although a few mates have had them and struggled to integrate them.
properly.. but to me they are sublime, but they really highlight poor amplification.
I have the horn and none horn versions, I prefer the horn less sound nowadays, it's funny how I didn't hear the horn colourations for years.. and then it was like a switch been tripped.. but there are some nice sounding horns, that sound realitively clean. I'm sure what steve is building for you will be great.
My present speakers have been together for about 6 years and are the 1st speakers I've built in my last 25years of building, that I'm struggling to fault.. so far
But there no horns involved !

 

[John]

John,

Aye, I remember your Tannoy journey, too. Are the DMT 15s still rockin’ and a-rollin’?

Joe

They and the System 1000’s are still getting a lot of use. Put out four videos of them in action on the Lejonklou forum. The one with the Bonamassa track have them really rockin’.

 

[Space is the Place]

You are right about lots of commercial speakers (not just horns) where little regard has been paid to C2C distances. The speakers I’m putting together will be designed to minimise lobing effects as far as is practically possible.

Ian... are you the Ian that i went to listen to the B&O speakers with and had some JBL M2's?

 

[iansr]

Yes Jon . In the new house the M2s will be in the TV room.

 

[Space is the Place]

Very good! how are you doing? Have you got a link to horns your having built?
The M2's a hell of a TV speaker set up there Ian!

I really enjoyed my JBL Array 1400 they were the most refined speaker i've owned, the lack of dynamic compression no doubt, the horn wasn't coloured, but the main cabinet had some mild boxy colouration that was obvious compared to the NHT Evo's i still own.

 

[iansr]

@Steve 57. You’ll be welcome to come and listen once they are set up - you are not too far away if I remember correctly?
Those Beyma AMTs get very good reports. The Mundorf ones are also supposed to be very nice.

Funny that you used horns with OB woofers as that is exactly what I’m planning: 4 x AE Dipole 12” woofers per side. I’m a fan of dipoles (having owned various planars) and so I figured why not mix OB with horns. Similar to the Pure Audio Project speakers but my drivers and horns are WAY better than the ones they use.

Are you bringing your speakers next week?

 

[iansr]

Very good! how are you doing? Have you got a link to horns your having built?
The M2's a hell of a TV speaker set up there Ian!

I really enjoyed my JBL Array 1400 they were the most refined speaker i've owned, the lack of dynamic compression no doubt, the horn wasn't coloured, but the main cabinet had some mild boxy colouration that was obvious compared to the NHT Evo's i still own.

I’m good thanks, hope you are too. Yeah bit of an indulgence to use the M2s for AV but I already own them so why not. It will be interesting to see if the speaker system I’m planning can top them. If you Google Joseph Crowe ES290 you’ll find the bi-radials I’m getting. My post before this one briefly describes how I’ll be handling the lower frequencies.

 

[Steve 57]

@Steve 57. You’ll be welcome to come and listen once they are set up - you are not too far away if I remember correctly?
Those Beyma AMTs get very good reports. The Mundorf ones are also supposed to be very nice.

Funny that you used horns with OB woofers as that is exactly what I’m planning: 4 x AE Dipole 12” woofers per side. I’m a fan of dipoles (having owned various planars) and so I figured why not mix OB with horns. Similar to the Pure Audio Project speakers but my drivers and horns are WAY better than the ones they use.

Are you bringing your speakers next week?

I'd love to have a listen once you have them up and running, I'm near the humber Bridge so I don't think your too far away..
Yes I'll have my speakers with me at owston, there will be a good selection of kit there all being well. Looking forwards to it, and it will be nice hear more about your project.

 

[iansr]

Excellent Steve, I’m looking forward to it.

 

[Perart1]

@S-Man. I posted earlier that most audiophiles don’t understand the technical advantages of horns . . .
The Vox Olympians are the best sounding speakers I’ve ever heard. If you disagree then I’m pretty sure you are a member of a small minority group.

Thank goodness that I am a member of 'a small minority group'

 

[Space is the Place]

The Joseph Crowe ES290 look lovely Ian, it'll be interesting to hear if they have the coherence of the M2, I'm still thinking of getting some more JBL at some point, i have some smaller PMC's and they have some of the qualities of the JBL horn. James Tanner of Bryston was keen on both the PMC's and Arrays now i can understand why, the PMC dont have the live you are at the venue imaging and freedom of the JBL's.

EDIT Just looked at the Joseph Crowe website and they have CAD files to make the horn, are you doing them this way?

 

[iansr]

The Joseph Crowe ES290 look lovely Ian, it'll be interesting to hear if they have the coherence of the M2, I'm still thinking of getting some more JBL at some point, i have some smaller PMC's and they have some of the qualities of the JBL horn. James Tanner of Bryston was keen on both the PMC's and Arrays now i can understand why, the PMC dont have the live you are at the venue imaging and freedom of the JBL's.

EDIT Just looked at the Joseph Crowe website and they have CAD files to make the horn, are you doing them this way?

Yup, they are CNC’d out of several pieces of plywood and then glued together.
In an earlier post I mentioned the tension between controlled directivity and horn loading. The M2s are probably the ultimate example of the former type of horn and they rely on a shed load of DSP to achieve their remarkable performance. The ES290s provide some pattern control but are much better at horn loading the driver. Different flavours of horn.

 

[GT]

Yup, they are CNC’d out of several pieces of plywood and then glued together.

Cessaro used to make their horns like this in their earlier models. In 2012 they discovered the moulded horn, similar to what Avantgarde Acoustic use, but Cessaro used a 2 layer design, as in it was about 50mm thick and hollow in the middle. Then the hollow area was filled with a special damping material. The completed horn was incredibly heavy and with the TAD driver fitted it weighed 65kgs - see the blue horn in the video below. The difference this moulded horn made over the wood horn was nothing short of revelatory. With this type of construction there is no horn colouration.

 

[iansr]

Interesting. I’d certainly take a wood horn over most moulded horns. The material will make some contribution but its my belief that horn “colouration” is mainly caused by the (flawed) design of the horn.

 

[GT]

Wood is just old tech. There are significantly better ways to make a horn today than with wood. The trouble is that most manufacturers cannot afford the investment.

 

[iansr]

Wood is just old tech. There are significantly better ways to make a horn today than with wood. The trouble is that most manufacturers cannot afford the investment.

If I had to guess I’d rank relative importance as: material 10% / horn design 90%. And I don’t think that’s a controversial view.