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HORNS THE ULTIMATE HIFI SPEAKERS ?

Also:
“Everyone would be using moulded spherical horns”.
Errr, no. All horns are compromised in some regard (just as all other speakers are) but spherical horns have more problems than most. They’re visually appealing though so that’s probably why some manufacturers use them . . .
 
If I'm not mistaken multicell horns were used as a means to compensate for the narrowing directivity with increasing frequency, a real problem if you have a large audience in a cinema.

But the horns we are talking about are designed and used in a domestic environment where the average distance between the listener and the speaker is about 3-5 metres. Not 20-50 metres like you would find in a cinema. That is why multi-cellor horns are not required for domestic listening today. I am not even sure they would even be used today if horns were used in Cinemas?
 
Also:
“Everyone would be using moulded spherical horns”.
Errr, no. All horns are compromised in some regard (just as all other speakers are) but spherical horns have more problems than most. They’re visually appealing though so that’s probably why some manufacturers use them . . .

What do you mean when you say spherical horns have more problems than most?
 
The problem with multi-way horns is that they tend to be a bit big...and very expensive.

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That is true if you want to cover the full audio spectrum of sound.
 
I know what you mean. I ended up adding ST100s to my Legacy Ardens just because I couldn’t quite get the in-room HF ‘seasoning’ to taste quite to my liking. The STs definitely help, with no obvious downsides (once dialled in). My room is a touch too ‘cushions, carpets and couches’ for a balanced HF response without feeling it sounds a touch shut-in, so I need that little bit of ‘seasoning’ :)

My horns have in built Fostex Super Tweeters and would you believe additional Ultra Tweeters? A given foo product...every time someone goes to the bog and and I disable the foo, they ask me what I've done to the system as it doesn't sound as good on their return. Even the distributor of these couldn't believe his partner of the time raving about these. Hence he opened up the Dem. pair to discover folks had ignored the part about over tightening the connections. On sawing them open (drastic at the price) he found all connections had been broken, rendering them useless and adding nothing to the sound. A pair of REL subs sort out any lack of lower regions but add a load of faff if I try tweaking them.

Hi res files from a late friend showed I had the subs dialed in way too strong as my neighbours soon found out. Have the tweeters to the outside (don't ask) but moving two horns that weigh 75Kgs each on isolators is not a one man operation as I nearly found out to my cost.
 
But the horns we are talking about are designed and used in a domestic environment where the average distance between the listener and the speaker is about 3-5 metres. Not 20-50 metres like you would find in a cinema. That is why multi-cellor horns are not required for domestic listening today. I am not even sure they would even be used today if horns were used in Cinemas?

Vintage cinema horns were used as a means to get high SPL from low powered amplifiers, and multicell to cover a wider spot across the spectrum.
Nowadays the are very powerful amplifiers so horns are no longer needed, although waveguides are still used to get even balance over a broader area.

Horn speakers with constant and narrow directivity may be a good choice for playback single-seater style when the listener prefer less room "interference" (more direct sound and less reflections).
 
My horns have in built Fostex Super Tweeters and would you believe additional Ultra Tweeters? A given foo product...every time someone goes to the bog and and I disable the foo, they ask me what I've done to the system as it doesn't sound as good on their return. Even the distributor of these couldn't believe his partner of the time raving about these. Hence he opened up the Dem. pair to discover folks had ignored the part about over tightening the connections. On sawing them open (drastic at the price) he found all connections had been broken, rendering them useless and adding nothing to the sound. A pair of REL subs sort out any lack of lower regions but add a load of faff if I try tweaking them.

Hi res files from a late friend showed I had the subs dialed in way too strong as my neighbours soon found out. Have the tweeters to the outside (don't ask) but moving two horns that weigh 75Kgs each on isolators is not a one man operation as I nearly found out to my cost.
Have to come hear those sometime!!!
 
Also:
“Everyone would be using moulded spherical horns”.
Errr, no. All horns are compromised in some regard (just as all other speakers are) but spherical horns have more problems than most. They’re visually appealing though so that’s probably why some manufacturers use them . . .

I agree. Any Spherical horns I’ve heard have all had the ‘trumpety’ thing going on…
 
I've heard Acapella horns sound excellent. All the others I've heard have too much colouration for me, although I've only heard the Vox Olympians and WEs at shows.
I agree - so far the best horns I have heard - one other DIY system in Hong Kong but it was DIY for $50,000US.

Acapella isn't a full horn system though they are hybrids and they are not particularly sensitive at around 91-95dB depending on models. But they avoid some of the problems of other horn speakers so the trade-off to me is worth it - but the price - not just for the speakers but the ones I have heard have around $300k+ worth of front end running them. The speakers have been the least expensive thing in the system!
 
Cessaro used to make their horns like this in their earlier models. In 2012 they discovered the moulded horn, similar to what Avantgarde Acoustic use, but Cessaro used a 2 layer design, as in it was about 50mm thick and hollow in the middle. Then the hollow area was filled with a special damping material. The completed horn was incredibly heavy and with the TAD driver fitted it weighed 65kgs - see the blue horn in the video below. The difference this moulded horn made over the wood horn was nothing short of revelatory. With this type of construction there is no horn colouration.


So..perhaps some colouration from the horn is coming from the material itself and not just the horns profile?
What wood (sorry couldn't help myself) be the best material to make a horn from?
On the Array the horn was made from JBL's SonoGlass, a mineral-loaded, high-density resin material. (fiberglass then).

I've not listen to any of the bigger Avantgardes but at the time i had a choice between the Active smaller Avantgardes and the JBL's, a dealer in Paris carrying both said go with the JBL's, they are much more capable realistic sounding speaker, so that's what i went with.
I think a member/dealer here had some of Active Avantgardes and didn't reckon much to them so my choice was vindicated. I like Avantgardes approach, they seem to be a engineering company, not just a hifi company, would like to hear the Uno's they might be another choice instead of JBL's.
 
Ready-made multi-way horn speakers (e.g. Cessaro, Avangarde, Odeon, Living Voice) tend to be extremely expensive.

Marc Henry's KornHent (formerly known as La Grande Castine) is a 3-way model using the Le Cléac'h profile which can be had for around €14,000.
It needs a complementary subwoofer or two, also available from the same manufacturer.

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That is true if you want to cover the full audio spectrum of sound.

Yes, and I would add that it is true if one wants to cover as much of the audio spectrum with narrow directivity which is the whole point of horn speakers.
 
Yes, and I would add that it is true if one wants to cover as much of the audio spectrum with narrow directivity which is the whole point of horn speakers.

Speakers like the Avantgarde and Cessaro horns are extremely generous in that they fill the whole room with sound. In other words you don't have to be in the sweet spot in-between the speakers to enjoy the music. It's one of their forte's. It also allows you to hear the music as if it were live in your room...

I remember one of my old dealers (Walrus Systems in London) sold quite a few pairs of Avantgarde horns. One pair of G1 Uno's were sold to a black guy in a London apartment block in a room 10ft x 10ft and playing nothing but loud Reggae music. I remember the guys at Walrus said how fantastic the sound was. It was so good the same guy came back a few months after and upgraded to a pair of Duos which went in the same room. Like wise, when exhibiting in Munich in one of the large rooms upstairs where the room was 7M wide by about 12M long. We used Cessaro Liszt's and the room was filled with great sound. It didn't matter where in the room you went, the sound was full and engaging...
 
Speakers like the Avantgarde and Cessaro horns are extremely generous in that they fill the whole room with sound. In other words you don't have to be in the sweet spot in-between the speakers to enjoy the music. It's one of their forte's. It also allows you to hear the music as if it were live in your room...

All speakers fill the room with sound. Omnidirectional speakers will use the room boundaries to increase "envelopment" (described by Toole as "the perception of being “in” the space with the performers") whilst at the other end of the spectrum dipoles, horns and cardioid designs like the Kii Three or the D&D 8C will produce a narrow beam of sound towards the spot they're aiming at.
Dipoles have the interesting charecteristic of increasing the sense of "envelopment" by using the back wave which arrives at the listening spot with sufficient delay as to be perceived as "spaciousness" in a more natural or realistic way (as if one were listening in a larger room).

Dutch & Dutch 8C (wave-guided cardioid narrow baffle box with rear woofers)
719DD8Cfig3.jpg


PSB T3 (wave-guided narrow baffle box)
816PSBT3fig5.jpg


Jamo R907 (open baffle)
209Jamfig5.jpg


MartinLogan Montis (planar dipole above 300Hz)
912Montisfig4.jpg


Avantgarde Uno Nano (horns above 350Hz)
709AGUfig5.jpg


MBL Radialstrahler 101E Mk.II (omni)
412MBLfig3.jpg


source: https://www.stereophile.com/
 
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What do you mean when you say spherical horns have more problems than most?

Spherical horns are relatively easy to design and manufacture for tiny companies (and DIY enthusiasts). They have a number of technical issues though in comparison with the non-spherical horns/waveguides typically seen from larger companies and particularly those from the professional side with more of an interest in sound quality in a technical sense:

- for stereo speakers in a room a wider side-to-side coverage compared to up-down coverage is desirable not only for seating reasons but because reflections from the sides are more beneficial for sound quality compared to those from the floor and ceiling.

- bringing the acoustic centres of drivers/horns closer together will reduce the off-axis lobing which only detracts from sound quality

- the reflection and diffraction of sound from the walls of spherical horns arrives at the centre-line at the same time increasing the degradation of the on-axis response
 
Speakers like the Avantgarde and Cessaro horns are extremely generous in that they fill the whole room with sound. In other words you don't have to be in the sweet spot in-between the speakers to enjoy the music. It's one of their forte's. It also allows you to hear the music as if it were live in your room...

I remember one of my old dealers (Walrus Systems in London) sold quite a few pairs of Avantgarde horns. One pair of G1 Uno's were sold to a black guy in a London apartment block in a room 10ft x 10ft and playing nothing but loud Reggae music. I remember the guys at Walrus said how fantastic the sound was. It was so good the same guy came back a few months after and upgraded to a pair of Duos which went in the same room. Like wise, when exhibiting in Munich in one of the large rooms upstairs where the room was 7M wide by about 12M long. We used Cessaro Liszt's and the room was filled with great sound. It didn't matter where in the room you went, the sound was full and engaging...

Definitely. With my system the sound seems to eminate from the entire back wall, if you didn’t know where the speakers were you wouldn’t be able to point out where they were placed.
One of the many problems I found when useing valve amps with horns was that the sound was much too large…instead of the impression of someone standing in front of you singing…it was more like a giant was bending down in front of you…the voices were coming from an area 5-6ft wide and high..
 
All speakers fill the room with sound. Omnidirectional speakers will use the room boundaries to increase "envelopment" (described by Toole as "the perception of being “in” the space with the performers") whilst at the other end of the spectrum dipoles, horns and cardioid designs like the Kii Three or the D&D 8C will produce a narrow beam of sound towards the spot they're aiming at.
Dipoles have the interesting charecteristic of increasing the sense of "envelopment" by using the back wave which arrives at the listening spot with sufficient delay as to be perceived as "spaciousness" in a more natural or realistic way (as if one were listening in a larger room).

Dutch & Dutch 8C (wave-guided cardioid narrow baffle box with rear woofers)
719DD8Cfig3.jpg


PSB T3 (wave-guided narrow baffle box)
816PSBT3fig5.jpg


Jamo R907 (open baffle)
209Jamfig5.jpg


MartinLogan Montis (planar dipole above 300Hz)
912Montisfig4.jpg


Avantgarde Uno Nano (horns above 350Hz)
709AGUfig5.jpg


MBL Radialstrahler 101E Mk.II (omni)
412MBLfig3.jpg


source: https://www.stereophile.com/

Hi Tuga
I can tell you from direct experience that that is definitely not the case….yes the sound may ‘reach’ the wall boundaries strictly speaking, but not with anything like the scale of a big horn…
I tried D&D speakers and I found them to be impressive for what they are…a bit like a Ford Focus RS..very good…but at the end of the day, still a Ford Focus…
 
Hi Tuga
I can tell you from direct experience that that is definitely not the case….yes the sound may ‘reach’ the wall boundaries strictly speaking, but not with anything like the scale of a big horn…
I tried D&D speakers and I found them to be impressive for what they are…a bit like a Ford Focus RS..very good…but at the end of the day, still a Ford Focus…

There are two things at play: directivity and dynamic ability. The reason why the D&D doesn't sound like a big horn is mostly because it's a small 3-way direct radiator. Size matters for max SPL and low-end extension.

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