New Klimax LP12
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Miss Ariel
pfm Member
Alun,
Sounds like you and I are in the sweet spot with our LP12's at the moment and its ironic that going up to two Klimax bits like new Radikal - EKOS SE would be more outlay than all our LP12 current spend.
The Karousel upgrade was just plain brilliant though.It's got to be the best VFM upgrade.
I am in a good place as I recently changed speakers to Magneplan 1.7i panels and their sheer transparency
on sources weather radio - CD and vinyl is astonishing.With the LP12 its like a cartridge upgrade as with my old Focals detail was just lost.So the new speakers where like cleaning the windows as an analogy as everything is so much clearer sounding.
BTW on The Wam in the LInn user site a guy reviews the new Radikal 2. He loved it great pics as well with fitting etc.
Alun Rains
Jus Juan Cornetto
Pleased you are enjoying your new speakers. Personally, I am still running a 45 year old pair of Celef Monitors. I did change the tweeter units about 20 years ago and my nephew, a cabinet maker re-veneered them in Oak. They still sound and look very good today. Designed by Stuart Tyler before he formed Proac. I really ought to audition a few alternatives but I would feel reluctant to let the Celef’s go now. They feel part of the family I guess.
I would imagine that the Radikal 2 on a Klimax LP12 would sound fantastic. However even the Akurate Radikal 2 would just about equal what my entire LP12 has cost me to date..
All the best, enjoy the music !
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
About ten years ago when I was considering blasting more cash into my LP12 I decided to listen to alternatives. I decided that to my ear the Klimax LP12 wasn't particularly good at maintaining speed. I found this effect especially audible on piano music. I thought the Radikal upgrade did not fix this, to my ear, and Urika possibly made it worse, by abandoning the previous religious observance of the carefully-dressed stiff arm cable.
Does the new Radikal attempt to fix this, and if so, how? Does it measure platter speed more frequently than once a revolution? If so, how does it ensure that short wavelength reactive accelerations reach the heavy platter quickly enough rather than stretching the belt and swaying the springs?
Earlier in the thread somebody suggested that the virtue of the LP12 was in its 'engineering'. Its build quality is generally quite nice, but that's not quite the same thing as engineering. There have been many decks before and since 1973 which sought to achieve consistent speed/pitch through engineering methods such as direct drive, high mass, high torque and so on.
It's interesting to contemplate how much speed stability other market offerings get you for the price of a Radikal.
Does the new Radikal attempt to fix this, and if so, how? Does it measure platter speed more frequently than once a revolution? If so, how does it ensure that short wavelength reactive accelerations reach the heavy platter quickly enough rather than stretching the belt and swaying the springs?
Earlier in the thread somebody suggested that the virtue of the LP12 was in its 'engineering'. Its build quality is generally quite nice, but that's not quite the same thing as engineering. There have been many decks before and since 1973 which sought to achieve consistent speed/pitch through engineering methods such as direct drive, high mass, high torque and so on.
It's interesting to contemplate how much speed stability other market offerings get you for the price of a Radikal.
jimification
pfm Member
There is mention in the blurb regarding: "a digitally managed (FPGA) motor control", though it's not further detailed.
Hypothetically, I wonder if Linn could have made more difference to the speed stability of the LP12 by R&D'ing a £1750 belt, rather than improving the radikal?
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Funny you should mention the 1601, but with it Thorens incorporated something which I suggested and tested on my Sondek ten years ago: the 'Kleat', an inelastic tether to constrain sideways movement of the sub-chassis. This can be achieved with a bit of gaffer tape and thread at the near right corner of a Sondek and in my opinion it transforms speed stability on piano music. Radically.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
I tried that trick on my LP12, heard no difference in pitch stability but it made the soundstage and dynamics worse.
I've never owned an LP12 but the Thorens addresses what for me is the biggest problem with a 3-point suspended sub-chassis turntable, viz. poor pitch stability. Question is, does it sound as engaging as an LP12? The price is certainly more reasonable!
What else does it do? What else can it do?
John
Rack’em Up!
Vibrate
It vibrates? And what good is that?
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
It gives the belt and suspension a fag break. Exhausting work, all that vibrating. Don't even mention vibrators.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Yes, this was my experience too if the thread was too taut. Too slack didn't work either. There was a happy medium where pianos stayed in tune during sustained notes and dynamics/air were still nice. Angle, fastening and thread material are all critical. It often took several attempts to get the benefit without too many side-effects. Thorens obviously think it's worth a try, and I understand the 1601's kleat is also adjustable.
david ellwood
Kirabosi Kognoscente
It also supplies power to the urika phono stage.
apparently a double whammy improvement for users of such
forester
pfm Member
There are a lot of ungrateful folk out there! Back in the day I reckon most on here would have given anything for a full spec Sondek-Ittok-Asak. Nowadays you can have one that comfortably surpasses that at a very reasonable cost. In fact a basic LP12 bought in the 1980's, with only the reasonably priced improvements retrofitted, probably outperforms the best available at any price from back then. Mine certainly does and what's more I've never had to change turntable. The total cost over the years will have been less than half the current cost of the equivalent now. Remember how much of a faff it is changing the whole record player? A better one is going to be of the order of 20 grand, you lose a load on the old one, have to visit loads of dealers to try everything under consideration, travel loads, waste whole days, and there's always the chance you won't be happy with the new one at the end.
Linn's improvements are always made retrofittable, the price includes installation, and the turntable is effectively serviced free of charge. Mine must be one of the most reliable things I've ever owned and the major components are under the manufacturers warranty 35 years after I first bought it! I've never heard one that didn't offer a clear improvement although the changes, particularly cumulatively, may not be to everyone's taste. Over the years the colouration has been lost, detail hugely improved and the noise floor reduced. I've enjoyed the improvements but feel no pressure to do so and if I stopped tomorrow I would still have a superb system for the rest of my life. I may one day acquire the new power supply, motor and cartridge or I may not. In fact it doesn't really matter if the LP12 is the best available at a certain price, I enjoy it and the performance justifies what I've spent on it. If you have the cash available I would expect the new options to be stunning purchases, if not then file alongside the Ferrari on your wish list. I expect most will be part of the default spec for the well heeled who may never actually get round to appreciating them, but they effectively pay for the R&D that benefits the rest of us.
Linn's improvements are always made retrofittable, the price includes installation, and the turntable is effectively serviced free of charge. Mine must be one of the most reliable things I've ever owned and the major components are under the manufacturers warranty 35 years after I first bought it! I've never heard one that didn't offer a clear improvement although the changes, particularly cumulatively, may not be to everyone's taste. Over the years the colouration has been lost, detail hugely improved and the noise floor reduced. I've enjoyed the improvements but feel no pressure to do so and if I stopped tomorrow I would still have a superb system for the rest of my life. I may one day acquire the new power supply, motor and cartridge or I may not. In fact it doesn't really matter if the LP12 is the best available at a certain price, I enjoy it and the performance justifies what I've spent on it. If you have the cash available I would expect the new options to be stunning purchases, if not then file alongside the Ferrari on your wish list. I expect most will be part of the default spec for the well heeled who may never actually get round to appreciating them, but they effectively pay for the R&D that benefits the rest of us.
Ditto.
cromodora
foshfishfie
That Radikal2 FPGA also appears on the Lingo 4 board.
The chip on the Radikal 1 is smaller.
Nic Robinson
Moderator
I just looked...the Technics SL-1200 is only £3.5k. Fit and forget.
