Shamina Begum Back In The UK.

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Did you read the article I linked to at #323?

How do you feel about a political decision trumping a written constitution / act? Is it only a bad thing if the UK does it?

There was a time, perhaps decades ago, when the U.K. thought its reputation and integrity was worth defending. Back then, a Home Secretary would be more likely to say ‘we think she has citizenship rights over there but they aren’t playing ball, so obviously the right thing here is to be the bigger man and not allow her to be used as a political football’.

Simpler times.

 

[kabayiri]

She needs a new home which matches with her strict Muslim values IMO.
It's the place she sought at 15, and we have no evidence that she has lost her faith.
Back here, she could become disenchanted and radicalized.

This is an issue for all believers of Islamic State. They haven't found what they were willing to fight and die for.
I don't want those values here, but I accept that others want a society which matches their strict religious outlook.

 

[kabayiri]

There was a time, perhaps decades ago, when the U.K. thought its reputation and integrity was worth defending. Back then, a Home Secretary would be more likely to say ‘we think she has citizenship rights over there but they aren’t playing ball, so obviously the right thing here is to be the bigger man and not allow her to be used as a political football’.

Simpler times.

Yeah , simpler times.
They don't exist post 911 IMO.
9/11 and the Iraq events changed everything.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

She needs a new home which matches with her strict Muslim values IMO.
It's the place she sought at 15, and we have no evidence that she has lost her faith.
Back here, she could become disenchanted and radicalized.

She already is radicalised. Or are you suggesting that ISIS ‘values’ are congruent with ‘strict Muslim values’?

 

[Ginger]

There was a time, perhaps decades ago, when the U.K. thought its reputation and integrity was worth defending. Back then, a Home Secretary would be more likely to say ‘we think she has citizenship rights over there but they aren’t playing ball, so obviously the right thing here is to be the bigger man and not allow her to be used as a political football’.

Simpler times.

Ooh.. do we really want a discussion about the fine reputation and integrity of the U.K.?

Shall we start with Diego Garcia? Or Amritsar? The Boer camps?

Actually, I’m no historian but I’m not persuaded we have a huge amount of which to be proud .

 

[PsB]

She needs a new home which matches with her strict Muslim values IMO.
It's the place she sought at 15, and we have no evidence that she has lost her faith.
Back here, she could become disenchanted and radicalized.

This is an issue for all believers of Islamic State. They haven't found what they were willing to fight and die for.
I don't want those values here, but I accept that others want a society which matches their strict religious outlook.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you could provide a complete list of the values you don't want in the country, so somebody in power could do something about anyone holding those values. You know, stripping those people of their rights and citizenship, deporting them if a suitable gulag can't be provided, that sort of thing. Priti Patel needs all the help she can get.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Someone once said that the problem with the British was not so much that they did bad things (few countries are guiltless), but that they insisted on claiming the moral high ground even when their actions were clearly about national self-interest.

As for 'reputation', that was largely about being able to make good on our threats by use of gunboats. Nowadays, when Raaaaab makes one of his 'I'm jolly cross about this' remarks, all he gets is a good laugh.

 

[White Zombie]

Perhaps it would be helpful if you could provide a complete list of the values you don't want in the country, so somebody in power could do something about anyone holding those values. You know, stripping those people of their rights and citizenship, deporting them if a suitable gulag can't be provided, that sort of thing. Priti Patel needs all the help she can get.

I’ll give this a go.

Values Not Welcome.

1.) Believing that the slaughter of your fellow citizens is justified and actively seeking training in how to carry out aforementioned slaughter.

These are values I personally could be doing without. If someone in power could look into it that be great.

 

[stevec67]

I’ll give this a go.

Values Not Welcome.

1.) Believing that the slaughter of your fellow citizens is justified and actively seeking training in how to carry out aforementioned slaughter.

These are values I personally could be doing without. If someone in power could look into it that be great.

I'm pretty sure that this is covered by the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1998, so I think we have this covered. In addition I think we have used it against people who, er, believed that slaughter of fellow citizens is justified and set about trying to do so, and we sent them to prison, so it seems to work fairly well. I'm not in power, and I'm not a lawyer either, but I'll accept any small reward that is payable. Thanks.

Edit - I think it may actually be the Terrorism Act 2000, but let's not split hairs, as I say IANAL.

 

[kabayiri]

Perhaps it would be helpful if you could provide a complete list of the values you don't want in the country, so somebody in power could do something about anyone holding those values. You know, stripping those people of their rights and citizenship, deporting them if a suitable gulag can't be provided, that sort of thing. Priti Patel needs all the help she can get.

Simple.
I'm not a fan of a future UK dominated by ultra conservative religious beliefs and practices.
This covers Islamic, Catholic, Judaism, etc.
But there are places and people who do believe in their faith first. That's fine, just not for me.
As for Priti Patel, you need to ask her.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I’ll give this a go.

Values Not Welcome.

1.) Believing that the slaughter of your fellow citizens is justified and actively seeking training in how to carry out aforementioned slaughter.

These are values I personally could be doing without. If someone in power could look into it that be great.

Slaughter of other countries’ citizens is fine, though, yes? Especially if ‘someone in power’ says so. Like in Iraq, or Syria, for example. It’s the doing it on your own doorstep that’s the problem, isn’t it?

 

[Cesare]

Did you read the article I linked to at #323?

How do you feel about a political decision trumping a written constitution / act? Is it only a bad thing if the UK does it?

Yes, I read that, and then dug around to try and understand the context as it's got confusing. It's not a story i've been actively following, and there do appear to be some twists and turns that I was unaware of. The exact wording of the Bangladeshi act around citizenship is an interesting read, for example section 15:

15. Every person becoming a citizen of Bangladesh under this Act shall have the status of a Commonwealth citizen.

http://bdlaws.minlaw.gov.bd/act-details-242.html

I'm now wondering what rights she has as a commonwealth citizen. At the end of the day, I believe she wants to challenge the removal of her citizenship of the UK, and she needs to be in the UK to do that, or some similar weird dystopian stuff.

 

[Cesare]

She already is radicalised. Or are you suggesting that ISIS ‘values’ are congruent with ‘strict Muslim values’?

She was radicalised in the UK - i'd expect the UK to arrest her and charge her with some crime or something. Ideally they'd get to the bottom of exactly what happened to her, and find those responsible. I'm pretty sure that as a 15 year old minor she was not a responsible adult. Someone paid for her to make it to Syria. Who are these people? What is being done about it? etc

 

[PsB]

Simple.
I'm not a fan of a future UK dominated by ultra conservative religious beliefs and practices.
This covers Islamic, Catholic, Judaism, etc.
But there are places and people who do believe in their faith first. That's fine, just not for me.

Does this mean you would recommend a strict separation of Church and State, or do I misunderstand?
Does this mean you would be OK deporting anyone holding ultraconservative religious beliefs and practices, whether they are citizens or not?

 

[kabayiri]

Does this mean you would recommend a strict separation of Church and State, or do I misunderstand?
Does this mean you would be OK deporting anyone holding ultraconservative religious beliefs and practices, whether they are citizens or not?

Yes, I prefer a secular state.
There is no evidence that religion leads to a more peaceful and stable society.
I don't advocate for deporting others. It is undeniable that some people, like Ms Begum, are attracted by a different sort of society. I don't see why she has given up on that ideal, all of a sudden.

 

[mykel]

Brainwashed as a minor child.
She needs to have the opportunity for deprogramming.
Those responsible need to be found and held to account.

As it stands now the victim is being victimized by the state, and the ones ultimately responsible for her radicalization are free to keep operating.

This is all wrong on so many levels.

 

[Seeker_UK]

I'm now wondering what rights she has as a commonwealth citizen.

It depends on which country you're considering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_citizen#Rights_and_privileges

However, if Bangladesh say she's not a citizen, she doesn't get Commonwealth citizenship conferred on her either.

 

[stevec67]

Simple.
I'm not a fan of a future UK dominated by ultra conservative religious beliefs and practices.
This covers Islamic, Catholic, Judaism, etc.

Well, as it happens I'm not a fan of a future UK dominated by ultra conservative beliefs and practices either.
This includes the current views of the Conservative Party.
So there you go.
Now in contrast to the Conservative Party and its ultra conservative beliefs, nobody in the UK lives in a country "dominated by ultra conservative religious beliefs and practices" because nobody, unlike the Conservative Party, has been stupid enough to vote for it as a party of government, and until they do it won't happen.

 

[kabayiri]

Well, as it happens I'm not a fan of a future UK dominated by ultra conservative beliefs and practices either.
This includes the current views of the Conservative Party.
So there you go.
...

As is your right to choose, and if enough agree with you, then the Conservatives lose out.
Doesn't bother me.
Hard line religion doesn't give you the right to choose on many things.

 

[stevec67]

Hard line religion doesn't give you the right to choose on many things.

Yes, and that's why it's not part of our democracy and has little real power. Unless you think that "hard line religion" has a significant power in the UK?