DACs vs Turntables

[fegs]

Not necessarily. I grew up with vinyl, it was the only real option at the time. I loved it when CD reached usable sound quality! Remote control, don't need to flip the disk over and you can chuck the things about without worry. No faffing around with tracking weights, alignment or suspension set up. What has any of that got to do with the music?

Some people recorded music. I want to hear it. That's kinda it for me.

Which kind of tells me you're not "into" vinyl ?

I get what you're saying regarding options at the time and to be honest we're all looking for different things from it all

I'm a firm believer of listening to the music and not the HiFi but I love the vinyl ritual, I also fully understand why others don't

Your last statement also rings very true with me

 

[k90tour]

I enjoy both. But for me vinyl gives me more of the performance as much as the music. I discover so much music through CD as it is so more accessible and I find it easy to learn scores. But with vinyl I hear an individuals relationship with the same music. I was listening to Claudio Arrau playing Beethoven sonatas the other day on vinyl. It's like listening to the man that wrote it the day before. I don't get that with digital and I have the same recordings on CD. That little bit of genius doesn't come through for me with digital replay. And if I hadn't heard the vinyl, I wouldn't know it is missing.

 

[Woodface]

Don’t think I’ve ever found CD fatiguing or that I can listen to vinyl for longer. I do feel there is a degree of projection when it comes to vinyl/analogue in a way there is with SS/Valves.

 

[John]

I have always been a vinyl guy and never embraced CD. I had and still have an Airport Express that is hooked up to my main system for streaming Spotify that could be played multi-room but rarely used it.

That changed when I purchased my first Sonos. It started with a Play 3 in my kitchen purchased mainly for my wife who was using a small crummy Bluetooth speaker. My multi-room hi-fi was too confusing and too much of a hassle for her to use.

When the Sonos Amp came out I purchased one to replace the integrated amp I was using on my three season porch which was hooked up to a pair of speakers, a TV and the main system’s preamp. It worked great with the TV, turning on when it sensed audio from the TV, allowing me to use the remote from the tv to adjust the volume.

It also worked well with my main hi-fi system I had setup in the basement. As soon as the needle dropped onto the record the amp would wake up and start playing at a preset volume level. I was also able to eliminate some devices that were in place in the line connection to deal with ground loops as my old integrated amp had grounded plugs.

The third bonus was how easy it was to control and stream Spotify from my iPad. I went from streaming 5 percent to now 75 percent after replacing another integrated amp in my living room with a second Sonos Amp. The speakers in that room is often grouped with my Play 3 when my wife and I are sitting around the kitchen table. Being able to add the Play 3 and balance the volume supplements the sound coming from the main speakers in the living room.

The Sonos Amp drives my monitors just fine and the sound I get from my records is undistinguishable from my all analog rig in the basement. I get much enjoyment from Spotify and find myself spending more time actively listening and exploring music via my main monitors in the living room all from my iPad.

 

[Whaleblue]

Perhaps they are not the right words but there is a difference, sometimes subtle. A bit like when you compare FM to Dab I
conjecture. I am only speaking for myself and my set up.When I play vinyl or FM there is a warmth and fluidity to the sound alongside a vast soundstage, depth and width. It’s a comforting sound. It laps over you. It may be distortion, nostalgia, old technology etc. I don’t know really. I thought ‘organic’ was a pretty good descriptor in the absence of other words. Digital can offer that kind of sound but it’s not quite alike.
I prefer Panasonic TVs to Sony. I feel the Panasonic has the more ‘organic’ picture. Smoother and more rounded. I find the Sony’s more brash, louder. The images look like cut outs sometimes. It’s a style.
I know it’s down to a range of variables. Your speakers, amp etc.
It’s hard to put into words really, but I thought I’d give it a go.

However, consider that FM is often just transmitting CD sound (presumably off a hard drive of some sort nowadays), and that even when transmitting a live broadcast it makes its way across country as a digital signal, reconverted to analogue for the final analogue transmission from your nearest mast.

 

[Del monaco]

However, consider that FM is often just transmitting CD sound (presumably off a hard drive of some sort nowadays), and that even when transmitting a live broadcast makes its way across country as a digital signal, reconverted to analogue for the final analogue transmission from your nearest mast.

Yes.I know that. But the resultant sound can be mesmerising. Funny really.

 

[Mr Pig]

Which kind of tells me you're not "into" vinyl ?

Not really. I'm into the music it makes. I'm not into vinyl for the sake of the medium itself. That's not loving music, that's a different hobby.

I don't buy or keep rare records, I've given them away because I didn't like the music. I've given away hundreds of CDs too, if I don't want the music they are of no interest to me. I don't have a record cleaning machine, I just want to play the records, not worship them.

Vinyl just happens to be the format that has given the greatest musical satisfaction for the greatest part of my life. It's only relatively recently that CD has truly worked. Early CD players sucked and even my first CD player, a Naim CD3.5 was shite compared to my LP12 or any decent turntable. When you want to get as close to the heart of he music as possible, vinyl was and still is one of the easiest ways to do it.

 

[Octavian]

When you want to get as close to the heart of he music as possible, vinyl was and still is one of the easiest ways to do it.

This is demonstrably untrue, of course. You may prefer the sonic alterations vinyl typically causes but they were not in the original recording.

 

[Mr Pig]

This is demonstrably untrue, of course. You may prefer the sonic alterations vinyl typically causes but they were not in the original recording.

How do you know what was on the original recording?

 

[Whaleblue]

How do you know what was on the original recording?

You don’t need to know in order to make the ascertain.

 

[John_73]

This is demonstrably untrue, of course. You may prefer the sonic alterations vinyl typically causes but they were not in the original recording.

I think this is what it all boils down to really. It's the "Vinyl IS best" mantra, when it should really be, "I know it's due to the combined mechanical and electrical 'distortions', but they're part of the subjective reason I prefer LP to CD". I have zero problem with people who prefer the sound (and the packaging) of vinyl - I'm one who enjoys these colourations too, and not everyone would enjoy the sound of the master tape in a near-field system - but when people say it's Better (End Of/period) I have to inwardly groan, then move onto a less frustrating thread This has all been done to death now.

 

[Mr Pig]

You don’t need to know in order to make the ascertain.

Really?

 

[SteveG]

If all you are interested in is accuracy then yes, a very good digital option might well be "better" than an equivalently priced vinyl option.

If what you are mainly interested in is enjoyment, then it's not likely to be as straightforward and the vinyl option might well be "better".

Chasing accuracy over enjoyment might be a slippery (and expensive) slope.

 

[Del monaco]

If all you are interested in is accuracy then yes, a very good digital option might well be "better" than an equivalently priced vinyl option.

If what you are mainly interested in is enjoyment, then it's not likely to be as straightforward and the vinyl option might well be "better".

Chasing accuracy over enjoyment might be a slippery (and expensive) slope.

I see the merits in all formats.First it’s the music, then the rendering of the music.Sometimes the music just takes flight, whatever the format. Alongside this experience are a whole host of variables. The time of day, the glass of wine you drank, the mood you’re in. The stars align and it is just special.The mastering probably helps so long as it retains the emotion, the performance. If it’s a brilliant mastering of Callas singing Tosca or Freni singing Lescaut I’m hooked though a brilliant mastering of Kraftwerk just leaves me cold. It’s so subjective and we all have our own ideas of what makes the most satisfying listen. It’s bound to us and what moves us.

 

[vinylslug]

This thread should be "DACs Vs Phono Stages" or similar, I'd've thought. (this might have been mentioned before...it's a long thread, so I might have missed it)
I don't think either is 'better' per se. I prefer vinyl, but I've spent most of the system's money on my vinyl front end. I'm sure if I paid equal attention to building a digital system, then the two would be pretty close. Different, but close.

 

[Whaleblue]

Really?

Yes. The artefacts introduced by vinyl reproduction are well known (rumble, groove echo, relatively high levels of channel cross-talk, cracks, pops, dynamic range compression - any more that I’ve forgotten?) - some of which can be mitigated/minimised - but they are there. Whether, and how they might, detract or enhance the experience is a little less well established.

 

[Paul Mc]

Yes. With vinyl you feel that you are listening to real performers while CD always sounds like a machine. My CD player is more organic than average, and the RP10 is less organic than the LP12, but the difference is still there.

There is more though. Vinyl can tell you more about what is being played and how. I don't know why, but it does. I find it hard to listen to albums on CD that I know well on vinyl. Just last night I was listening to TheThe 'Soul Mining' and it just didn't sound right. The fantastic Jules Holland piano solo didn't flow the same and you weren't feeling the accents and subtle timing shifts. Did not grab you and amaze you in the way it does on vinyl.

Albums I don't have on vinyl are fine! Guess if you don't know what you're missing, and some CDs are better than others. I'm sure the production plays a part.

The Ivor blind test, well vinyl was still the source. And it's very hard to take blind tests at all seriously when they regularly throw up patently absurd results and virtually always a negative one. I'm waiting for the test that proves you can't tell the difference between an LP12 and a block of cheese.

I don't this is the case if you get the right CD player and correct set -up. IMHO of course.

 

[Mr Pig]

Yes. The artifacts introduced by vinyl....

That's not what I asked you. I asked how you know what the original recording, or the original performance was like? Without knowing that, how do you know that the sound from your CD player is closer to it?

 

[sonddek]

That's not what I asked you. I asked how you know what the original recording, or the original performance was like? Without knowing that, how do you know that the sound from your CD player is closer to it?

Good point, but what is more, a lot of music of a certain era was recorded and mastered with a view to being played on typical playback equipment of that era. The most accurate playback may not be the most authentic or the closest to what we were intended/expected to hear.

 

[Mr Pig]

Good point, but what is more, a lot of music of a certain era was recorded and mastered with a view to being played on typical playback equipment of that era. The most accurate playback may not be the most authentic or the closest to what we were intended/expected to hear.

To me, the only real metric we have is how well the system paints the illusion of real performers in real space and how well we can connect with the message they intend to convey. Anyone with a well sorted LP12-based system knows which format wins that fight.