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Brexit: give me a positive effect... VII

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And I think you're clutching at straws, in this case to paint the EU as a malevolent force undermining the integrity of the UK. Post devolution, the UK includes different legal systems. You could say there is a legal border between Scotland and England, and the EU has had nothing to do with it. You complain the EU has instrumentalized the GFA, and then try to intrumentalize the GFA to say that the Northern Ireland Protocol undermines it (it does not, as previously discussed here). The UK Single Market is BoJo's last minute creation (post Brexit) to try to roll back devolution and slow down Scottish autonomy.

Is the EU a 'malevolent' force? It certainly isn't a benign one, and it has a long and very far from noble track record of of pursuing its cast-in-stone dogmas at whatever the cost, and often in complete contempt for the troublesome matter of democracy. It evidently sees the UK not only as heretical, but as a future competitor with malign intentions, and has gone to some considerable trouble not only attempt to prevent brexit, but to infiltrate its own legal technocratic checks on the potential competitiveness of post-brexit UK. The WA, and the attendant NI Protocol, are its means of undertaking this sabotage, because they carry over the 'direct effect' of EU law into the post-brexit UK. That is why I refer to the WA as onorous.

The different systems of England and Scotland are totally irrelevant to this question, and I believe, with respect, that you have merely introduced it as a red herring.

The NI Protocol has (as previously discussed here at some length, if you'll forgive my patronising you back) the potential to directly contravene the text of the GFA.

The UK Internal Market has absolutely nothing to to with Johnson. It originates in the Acts of Union between England and Scotland of 1707, and of Great Britain and Ireland of 1800, later amended to Northern Ireland. It is a foundational block in the constitution, and in an uncanny mirror of our times states that there will be no Customs Duties imposed between the nations, that there will be a joint and uniform external customs policy, and that there will be no bounty (aka state aid) that advantages the traders of one nation over the others.

The WA and the NIP fly directly in the face of this, as the latter might impose the levy of duties between NI and the mainland, and vice versa. As such it will directly contravene the text of the GFA, which states in the Constitutional preamble that there will be 'no change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people'.

The border issue was created by the UK government's unilateral (and in my view daft) decision to leave the CU and SM, and this in turn threatened key parts of the GFA. The EU has bent over backwards to accommodate the UK and Ireland on the issue: it has negotiated two different methods of reconciling Brexit with the need to maintain free circulation between NI and the Republic, as required by the shifting sands of UK politics. The fundamental problem all along has been that the UK has been unable to articulate a coherent and realistic set of objectives and to stick to them. Maybe the effect of 3 different PMs and 3 GEs in 5 years: that's more than Italy has had.

I think that remaining in the SM and CU had much going for it, if only the spectre of the ECJ could have been kept out of the equation, or the UK had had a seat at the table. Norway manages this, and I regret that it wasn't pursued by May.

However, the border issue was created by an opportunist Irish government, which spotted it before the referendum had even been announced, and then in cahoots with the EU, what is perhaps unfortunately referred to as 'weaponised' it as part of a concerted attempt to overturn or negate the results of the referendum.

Well, many believe all sorts of strange things. I remember the derision from Brexiters here when it was suggested many years ago that Brexit could have the negative effect of putting a border down the Irish Sea. No PM would ever entertain such a heretic thought, we were confidently assured. The NI Protocol is a damage limitation exercise, and the negotiators have made the best of it.

Johnson’s Internal Market and Taxation Bills are a damage limitation exercise on the more onerous aspects of the WA and NIP, though I'm not convinced that they would be sufficient. As it is he has apparently received sufficient assurances from the EU to allow him to remove the problem clauses from the bills. I guess we'll see. I note that this matter has been the subject of some vigorous debating in the HoC today.

Leaving aside UK sovereignty for a second, the real threat to UK integrity is Brexit and the demons and internal dynamics of the Conservative Party.

Well, that as you say is another argument, or not.
 
I’m getting the whiff of denialism. Surely it can’t be ending like this? It’s the same with Tory MPs lining up to be interviewed and just now on Newsnight. They can’t understand why the EU doesn’t see it their way and the talk is of defiant glorious defeat. “We can survive tariffs and loss of markets but we can never surrender”. A sad, disreputable retreat from the global stage. Acceptance will come eventually then the recriminations will start.
 
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That’s funny because you were repeatedly saying they needed a deal. Which is it? Sometimes I get the impression you post without thinking, post anything/spray and pray.
Things are looking bad tonight. The Torygraph is telling Johnson he’ll be destroyed politically if he capitulates to the EU. It’s death or glory now Colin and the ditch is beckoning.
There will be a deal in December, i thought i had mentioned it.
 
I like curry, congratulations on giving it up, it’s not something I’d want to do. Oh and soft fruit, I like that too.
I had Scottish halal lamb tonight. I think the spices came from Pakistan. Not sure about the little aubergines.
 
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It’s a choice between the end of Bojos personal political career, or the end of the UK. No prizes for guessing which option bojo will go for.
The adenoidal Katy Balls of The Spectator is covering Johnson’s arse tonight by claiming everything is normal, expectations for Johnson’s charm dinner were low anyway etc etc. It was a failure. Johnson has an estimation of himself at odds with most other’s estimation of him.
 
It’s a choice between the end of Bojos personal political career, or the end of the UK. No prizes for guessing which option bojo will go for.

I suspect the end of the UK would also be the end of BoJo's political career as well. It would possibly be the end of the Tory Party's career too once the pound plummets below the Euro, Kent becomes gridlocked, job losses, food shortages, medicine shortages, and civil unrest can't be covered by the fig leaf of COVID any more. The worrying question is, what would fill the vacuum?
 
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...er-in-brussels-cartoon?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


ryINTs4.jpg
 
Is the EU a 'malevolent' force? It certainly isn't a benign one, and it has a long and very far from noble track record of of pursuing its cast-in-stone dogmas at whatever the cost, and often in complete contempt for the troublesome matter of democracy. It evidently sees the UK not only as heretical, but as a future competitor with malign intentions, and has gone to some considerable trouble not only attempt to prevent brexit, but to infiltrate its own legal technocratic checks on the potential competitiveness of post-brexit UK. The WA, and the attendant NI Protocol, are its means of undertaking this sabotage, because they carry over the 'direct effect' of EU law into the post-brexit UK. That is why I refer to the WA as onorous.

The different systems of England and Scotland are totally irrelevant to this question, and I believe, with respect, that you have merely introduced it as a red herring.

The NI Protocol has (as previously discussed here at some length, if you'll forgive my patronising you back) the potential to directly contravene the text of the GFA.

The UK Internal Market has absolutely nothing to to with Johnson. It originates in the Acts of Union between England and Scotland of 1707, and of Great Britain and Ireland of 1800, later amended to Northern Ireland. It is a foundational block in the constitution, and in an uncanny mirror of our times states that there will be no Customs Duties imposed between the nations, that there will be a joint and uniform external customs policy, and that there will be no bounty (aka state aid) that advantages the traders of one nation over the others.

The WA and the NIP fly directly in the face of this, as the latter might impose the levy of duties between NI and the mainland, and vice versa. As such it will directly contravene the text of the GFA, which states in the Constitutional preamble that there will be 'no change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people'.



I think that remaining in the SM and CU had much going for it, if only the spectre of the ECJ could have been kept out of the equation, or the UK had had a seat at the table. Norway manages this, and I regret that it wasn't pursued by May.

However, the border issue was created by an opportunist Irish government, which spotted it before the referendum had even been announced, and then in cahoots with the EU, what is perhaps unfortunately referred to as 'weaponised' it as part of a concerted attempt to overturn or negate the results of the referendum.



Johnson’s Internal Market and Taxation Bills are a damage limitation exercise on the more onerous aspects of the WA and NIP, though I'm not convinced that they would be sufficient. As it is he has apparently received sufficient assurances from the EU to allow him to remove the problem clauses from the bills. I guess we'll see. I note that this matter has been the subject of some vigorous debating in the HoC today.



Well, that as you say is another argument, or not.

I’m not sure who you are trying to persuade that the WA is a terrible thing here?

I think that all of us who voted remain already knew that.

May’s deal was marginally less awful. But at least it didn’t threaten the union and if those mythical ‘alternative arrangements’ had been developed, it would have been signed off.

Neither WA would have helped in the negotiations we are in now.

The EU is the most successful coming together of countries with different histories and language in peace to trade and share cultural activities. The countries in it were at war 80 years ago. It’s not perfect- what is - but the world is a better place for it being here.

It’s the only social democratic liberal democracy in the world that can stand up to China and the USA.

Stephen
 
Just listening to Raab on Radio 4 demonstrates the complete lack of understanding of the U.K. government with respect to trade.

If you want to play in the game, you have to follow the rules. Britain want to play but change the rules as it suits them.

Nothing to do with pathetic bullying claims from Brexiteers.

We can walk away now if we accept the consequences of that action.

Stephen
 
I suspect the end of the UK would also be the end of BoJo's political career as well. It would possibly be the end of the Tory Party's career too once the pound plummets below the Euro, Kent becomes gridlocked, job losses, food shortages, medicine shortages, and civil unrest can't be covered by the fig leaf of COVID any more. The worrying question is, what would fill the vacuum?

Apparently they are only going to randomly check about 15% of vehicles for the correct paperwork to get round Kent being gridlocked and food shortages. So that is 15% of control back then.
 
Dominic "I didn't understand how important Dover's port was to our exports" Raab? Shurly shome mishtake.

If only the EU would just "get it" we want to be totally sovereign and enjoy full access to the SM - is that too much to ask? After all, the political credibility of Johnson is at stake.

Love Colin B's understanding of how export markets relate to each other. A hoot. I hope you enjoy spending and eating "sovereignty". Angela suddenly seems curiously absent from your scenario these days, if you think she's worried about 8% of the EU's export market, imagine how we should feel about 43% of ours.
 
Just listening to Raab on Radio 4 demonstrates the complete lack of understanding of the U.K. government with respect to trade.

If you want to play in the game, you have to follow the rules. Britain want to play but change the rules as it suits them.

Nothing to do with pathetic bullying claims from Brexiteers.

We can walk away now if we accept the consequences of that action.

Stephen

I switched it off when he (deliberately?) mispronounced Ursula von der Leyen's name.
 
Tory backbenchers including the now highly vulnerable red wall MPs are urging Johnson not to concede one scrap of ‘sovereignty’ to the EU. That’ll be English sovereignty of course because he had no compunction about selling off Northern Irish sovereignty (twice) when it was required.
This whole thing has been a slow motion car crash and it has exposed not only the limit of British power but how far the Conservatives have eroded British influence. Friendless in the US, friendless in Europe ( apart from a couple of near fascist states), Putin will be gloating at the antics of his Britain Trump.
 
Eh I don’t talk about the SNP.

I don’t pray for anything, religion is bollocks. I work and I look after my own.

Brexit is very much religious, it actually far exceeds it. It is full of dogmas, patron saints, miracles, holy days (I propose to call Jan 1 after Farage - St. Nigel), rituals, sentiments, it has believers, even the devil is there (EU?) ...
 
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