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Brexit: give me a positive effect... VII

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Brian said:
Well, as the BIG side on the negotiations, yes, it's down to the EU.


That I think something is ridiculous that you appear to think is not doesn't mean I don't get the point.

I do understand the superior intelligence level of the hard remainer, but honestly, despite various comments from members over the years I am not dumb.
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Brian, I’ve got the distinct impression you don’t know what you don’t know.
 
eternumviti said:
Do the EU terms of the Canada FTA include having 90% of the fish in Canadian waters, and ECJ jurisdiction over level playing field and state aid rules, I wonder?
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we are within our rights to walk away. Let’s do that and have a clean break. What’s not to like?
 
TheDecameron said:
Brian, I’ve got the distinct impression you don’t know what you don’t know.
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:D

Is that it?

What do you think of those thick northern ex-Labour voters/racists doing in 2019 what you and your fellow travellers did 4 years earlier? I get the distinct impression there is little difference.
 
Ah, fanks for explaining it all to me, Tuga, don't know where I'd be without you.

Steve, UK sovereign waters are just that, immaterial of who eats the fish that are caught in them. Some historic, pre-EEC conventions notwithstanding, for the EU to try to claim otherwise is directly comparable to the UK claiming a right to harvest 90% of the vineyards of Bordeaux on the arguably stronger account of the fact that we actually owned the bloody thing for a good few years a while back.

The CFP, and the CAP, were a stitch up that was completed by the EEC a week before the UK signed in. The former devasted the UK fishing industry within a few years - Grimsby had a fleet of 700 boats at its peak, it has 3 now - and wrought environmental carnage on the North Sea fisheries. The CAP ensured that the British taxpayer subsidised inefficient French farmers in perpetuity, whilst enriching the UK's own already wealthiest landowners.

Of course the pathetic rump of the UK fleet is incapable of efficiently and sustainably exploiting its own waters, but it is entirely reasonable that the UK controls them.
 
TheDecameron said:
Brian, I’ve got the distinct impression you don’t know what you don’t know.
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Are you thinking Donald Rumsfeldt?

There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.
 
eternumviti said:
Ah, fanks for explaining it all to me, Tuga, don't know where I'd be without you.

Steve, UK sovereign waters are just that, immaterial of who eats the fish that are caught in them. Some historic, pre-EEC conventions notwithstanding, for the EU to try to claim otherwise is directly comparable to the UK claiming a right to harvest 90% of the vineyards of Bordeaux on the arguably stronger account of the fact that we actually owned the bloody thing for a good few years a while back.

The CFP, and the CAP, were a stitch up that was completed by the EEC a week before the UK signed in. The former devasted the UK fishing industry within a few years - Grimsby had a fleet of 700 boats at its peak, it has 3 now - and wrought environmental carnage on the North Sea fisheries. The CAP ensured that the British taxpayer subsidised inefficient French farmers in perpetuity, whilst enriching the UK's own already wealthiest landowners.

Of course the pathetic rump of the UK fleet is incapable of efficiently and sustainably exploiting its own waters, but it is entirely reasonable that the UK controls them.
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Of course it's not "immaterial" where the market is for fish caught in UK waters - it happens to be the SM. There seems nothing you can't try and make look like we have been victims over. Our waters were one of the main things we brought to the party. There would be little point in the "pathetic rump of the UK fleet" exploiting any waters, if the market for the bulk of that catch becomes less cost effective for them to sell.

The fish we do want for our own market should be told to swim into our 'sovereign waters' bloody daft fish, fancy not knowing where the borders are. Our 'sovereign' waters are a chip (see what I did there?), useless to us other than that.
 
eternumviti said:
Yes, we've all read that a dozen times, and ghastly it is, but that is the then and this is the now. We have to find a new accommodation that respects British sovereignty.
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A new accomodation of the kind "keep waters, lose access"?
 
SteveS1 said:
Of course it's not "immaterial" where the market is for fish caught in UK waters - it happens to be the SM. There seems nothing you can't try and make look like we have been victims over. Our waters were one of the main things we brought to the party. There would be little point in the "pathetic rump of the UK fleet" exploiting any waters, if the market for the bulk of that catch becomes less cost effective for them to sell.

The fish we do want for our own market should be told to swim into our 'sovereign waters' bloody daft fish, fancy not knowing where the borders are. Our 'sovereign' waters are a chip (see what I did there?), useless to us other than that.
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It isn't so much that 'we've' been victims as the UK fishing industry (once, incredibly, amongst the world's largest) has been a victim, and if that is all that we brought to the party (#bullshit, but I take your point) it's high time we left the party, as it obviously isn't all its ramped up to be.

The UK, in charge of it own sovereign waters, has policy choice. Quotas can be renegotiated, rolled-over or bought back in. Simple, even if not uncomplicated, but that is a task for elected governments to undertake.

tuga said:
A new accomodation of the kind "keep waters, lose access"?
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Mmmm. That has the ring of a threat. Significant regions and sectors of the EU enjoy substantial trade surpluses with the UK.

I guess you and I would not make for effective negotiators.
 
eternumviti said:
Canada UK 'roll over' existing EU/Canada FTA.

Roll over does not give any new benefit to UK businesses.

Well, no shit Sherlock!
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But why does the UK want to roll over any EU deal. We’ve been told the EU deal limit the UK and promised that we will get even better deals going forward. Your heroes, IDS, Hannah, Boris, Gove etc all told us that even WTO terms were better than what we had..

I don’t understand what’s going on here. Could it be, maybe, that someone lied to us?
 
Oh, dear.

The rollover is to retain the status quo whilst the UK and Canada negotiate a new, bespoke deal over the next two or three years.

You do know this.
 
eternumviti said:
It isn't so much that 'we've' been victims as the UK fishing industry (once, incredibly, amongst the world's largest) has been a victim, and if that is all that we brought to the party (#bullshit, but I take your point) it's high time we left the party, as it obviously isn't all its ramped up to be.
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Unsustainably so and doesn't deal with the need for a market for that fish - which in the main is not our own. Absolutely no point in an oversized fishing fleet with no market, or one you are determined to make less available - perhaps if you spent less time bemoaning the EU and got more Brexiteers to actually eat the stuff it might help.

But as I said, you complain that others have fixed views yet you remain unshakably certain. Access to our waters and a large potential consumer base were what we brought to party - your memory is pretty selective about our position as your recollection of our economic positionin the 70s is.
 
eternumviti said:
Oh, dear.

The rollover is to retain the status quo whilst the UK and Canada negotiate a new, bespoke deal over the next two or three years.

You do know this.
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Yeah bring it on, as a smaller entity I'm sure they will fold pretty quickly and give us a better 'bespoke' deal. Jeeze.
 
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