You said "You’re ignoring the pipe from the swimming pool". That's what I'm asking about.
Never say never....a $10,000/1 meter power cable?!*
- Thread starter rontoolsie
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Joe P
Memory Alpha incarnate | mod; Shatner number = 2
Joe,
I used to think that as well, then I saw one of ElectroBOOM's videos on a related topic.
ElectroBOOM does both objective and subjective testing, and he's just as happy to use a multimeter as his fingers, hands, face or tongue.
Joe
I used to think that as well, then I saw one of ElectroBOOM's videos on a related topic.
ElectroBOOM does both objective and subjective testing, and he's just as happy to use a multimeter as his fingers, hands, face or tongue.
Joe
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
My observed effects seem to centre around the energy in the system. Better dynamics, more 'presence', more sense of flow and phrasing in the music. Broadly, like the difference between a gig on a 'meh' night, and a 'good' night. You get better musicians, having a better time, for your money.
I have little to offer in terms of linking the effect to the characteristic of the cable because my expertise is not electronics, but I wonder if there might be something to do with impedance matching, either at the amp end, or with the mains supply. I'm aware that some manufacturers find the length of the mains cable is fairly critical, so that makes me wonder about resonance, reflections, standing waves, and such like. But I'll make you a deal: you don't expect answers from me about technical stuff, and I won't ask you difficult questions about information governance, data protection, and associated international legislation. Sound fair?
Well, actually you were asking about the pipe to the swimming pool, so I suggested you ask the person who coined the analogy, because I wasn't.
But if you're talking about the pipe from the pool, then sq described it as a five-foot pipe. I took that to mean five feet long, but of course he could mean five feet in diameter, so again, best ask him.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
Ok so you think you hear something. Have you properly blind tested to see if you can actually identify which cables are in use with statistical significance. Guess right 8/10 times and you could win a big prize.
I couldn't hear a difference between rca leads, keys , tin foil or coathangers when testing signal cables, so I gave up on wire.
I couldn't hear a difference between rca leads, keys , tin foil or coathangers when testing signal cables, so I gave up on wire.
Cables are the middle aged audiophiles answer to face cream. This is the industry that sold us green CD pens. Cryogenic treatments. It's face serum with anisotropic follicle plumping agents. 77% of 127 women polled thought it made their follicles plumper. Or lowered the noise floor.I
The emperor's tailors are doing just fine, thanks.
The emperor's tailors are doing just fine, thanks.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I have done blind tests, yes, and yes, I could hear a difference, but not to the sort of statistical significance you require. My experience has been that I can get the right cable 3, maybe 4 times in a row, but then I start to get confused as to which sound corresponded to which cable and the consistency drops right down thereafter. It is generally acknowledged that audio memory is very short lived, and what is a blind test if not a test of audio memory? These experiences are my basis for my contention that a blind test is an ineffective tool for determining such things. I'm satisfied in my own mind that the differences are actual, not illusory, just as I am also satisfied that the blind test is not the mechanism to show this. It is at its most effective as a mechanism to shut down the argument.
I.D.C.
pfm Member
I will hold my hand up to admitting having a JPS Kaptovator mains cable into my amp having been talked into buying one with the amp. I have taken it off the amp and put it on the 65" TV there was defently an improvement in the picture. Is there an improvement on sound from the amp ? No idea have never compared it have looked at online reviews after I bought the Kaptovator they are all very good. Have I been conned if so it's too late now.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
It's never a con...if it's what you want and you enjoy it, and if you have a good understanding of all sides of the argument then you makes your bed and you lies in it.
As an educator, my concern is that people should not be persuaded that 'expensive' always means 'better'.
FWIW, I too can distinguish minute variations in sound from different mains cables...really minute. Maybe, if pressed, a smaller than 1% change in the overall presentation (and not always better IME)...so my thought on a ten thousand pound cable would be that these changes could only represent VFM in a system, where other kit provided the other 99% of the sound, if the whole cost a million pounds.
But then I doubt billionaires care. At Trump towers for example, best is simply, always, whatever cost most I guess.
As an educator, my concern is that people should not be persuaded that 'expensive' always means 'better'.
FWIW, I too can distinguish minute variations in sound from different mains cables...really minute. Maybe, if pressed, a smaller than 1% change in the overall presentation (and not always better IME)...so my thought on a ten thousand pound cable would be that these changes could only represent VFM in a system, where other kit provided the other 99% of the sound, if the whole cost a million pounds.
But then I doubt billionaires care. At Trump towers for example, best is simply, always, whatever cost most I guess.
This is something new to me. It's unfortunate my TV can't take a full-sized standard cord but I don't watch much movies anyway.
sq225917- rca leads, keys , tin foil or coat hangers you say. Have you done blind testing on this? If you are sure, I think you are on to a winner. You could surely market some “funky” interconnects. Much more alluring than boring old black cable. I myself would be particularly interested in ones made from bits of old bicycles.
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
It’s a complete con, designed purely to extract money from the gullible, sadly like so much in audio.
Keith
John Phillips
pfm Member
I think you may possibly be guilty of MOOM (copyright @Jim Audiomisc). That's making Mountains Out Of Molehills in your technical examples.
On the pulsation of 'speaker leads along with the audio signal this is a real effect. However I think the magnitude is too tiny to have a real impact. Some years ago I wrote myself a paper to calculate the type and magnitude of impacts from the Lorentz forces I think you mean. I didn't calculate separately the amplitude to see if it might be felt, but went straight to the non-linearity of the inductance and capacitance of the cable to see if the signal would be noticeably distorted. The inductance and capacitance of the cable in the presence of a signal current came out to these equations:
L = L0 * ( 1 + α * signal current squared ) for α = 2.0 parts per billion with my kit at the time
C = C0 * ( 1 + β * signal current squared ) for β = 0.6 parts per billion with my kit at the time
C = C0 * ( 1 + β * signal current squared ) for β = 0.6 parts per billion with my kit at the time
L0 and C0 are inductance and capacitance with no signal. The coefficients of non-linearity, α and β, seem way too low to matter compared to the elephant in the room which is the non-linearity of the drivers in the loudspeaker. I am prepared to have the paper looked at by an expert to see if I have made an error.
I also looked at the time delay you mention - which is usually referred to as dielectric relaxation (DR) if I have understood what you wrote. BTW, time delay is actually a linear effect and a natural consequence of linear RLC circuits. DR has to be taken into account in capacitors used in precision sample and hold circuits and the modelling is well known. I applied the model to a loudspeaker cable and the numerically simulated impact of this effect came out as frequency response ripples in the region of some thousandths of a decibel. A real effect but of impact that is nothing compared the decibel-level ripple of even a good loudspeaker. I was also interested to see if DR had any non-linear models that might have bigger impact. However I couldn't find any in the professional literature at the time and precision sample and hold systems seem to work without considering this.
This sounds somewhat weak. In other words, you are blaming the test for not giving the results you wanted.
"Short lived auditory memory" (how is it different in sighted tests?) is just another ad hoc attempt to rescue the subjectivist position.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
In a blind abx test, you listen to a, listen to b listen to x and guess what it is, rinse then repeat, swapping or not swapping a for b randomly each time. The required audio memory is the same each time. Do it ten times, score 8 correct, you've passed.
Brennus, Rob of this parish made digital recordings of preamp output using those various interconnecting items and uploaded the unnamed files. So a truly blind test. There were some differences and if I recall correctly the tin foil was trending to least liked, but no significance was achieved.
There was a good number of participants, mid double digits as I recall.
Brennus, Rob of this parish made digital recordings of preamp output using those various interconnecting items and uploaded the unnamed files. So a truly blind test. There were some differences and if I recall correctly the tin foil was trending to least liked, but no significance was achieved.
There was a good number of participants, mid double digits as I recall.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
No. Short lived audio memory is the objectivist position. In sighted tests we're not repeating the test 'n' times to achieve statistical certainty.
I'm not aware there's an approved or agreed methodology for such things, and this is I think the first time I've seen that particular methodology described. It's certainly not the methodology implied in various reports I've seen. There it tended to be:
Play a; play b. Repeat as necessary until the audience is happy they have it. Play a series of a or b, have the audience write down which they think it is, for each playing.
And this relevant ... exactly how?
Joe P
Memory Alpha incarnate | mod; Shatner number = 2
On audio forums I’ve often read that audio memory is notoriously short lived, but I’ve never seen any evidence that shows this to be an unassailable truth or a conclusion backed by reams of evidence. For all I know it could be an urban legend like the one that claims we use only 10% of our brains. (Really? As a student of evolutionary biology it’s hard to believe natural selection would be so wasteful and sloppy to evolve a structure that large and energy hungry when a smaller one better constructed would do the same job.)
I had a call from a friend I hadn’t talked to in ages and yet over the low-fi phone I immediately knew it was him. The sound of his voice was unmistakable.
Or try this: Play a record you loved as a teenager but haven’t listened to in decades. Is it as new or a familiar piece? If you’re like me it all comes back and you know just when a particular part of the song is about to happen before it happens. I can clearly remember musical passages decades after I’ve heard them as I suspect most can.
Some aspects of audio memory clearly are not short lived.
What exactly is so shitty about audio memory?
Joe
I had a call from a friend I hadn’t talked to in ages and yet over the low-fi phone I immediately knew it was him. The sound of his voice was unmistakable.
Or try this: Play a record you loved as a teenager but haven’t listened to in decades. Is it as new or a familiar piece? If you’re like me it all comes back and you know just when a particular part of the song is about to happen before it happens. I can clearly remember musical passages decades after I’ve heard them as I suspect most can.
Some aspects of audio memory clearly are not short lived.
What exactly is so shitty about audio memory?
Joe
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Well, its simply a defence of my post. I'm not claiming short term audio memory, I'm relying on your side's claims for that. You seem determined to use it against me. So is it one of those things that's true, so long as it suits your argument, or what? Crack on, but don't expect me to co-operate if all you're trying to do is get me to dig a hole for myself. That's not why I'm here.