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Luxman/Accuphase/Yamaha - Quality?

Come on chaps, we all know UK retailers require an 80-100% markup on hi-end products... that's why the S/H & ex-dem market is so strong in comparison.
 
Old Shatterhand said:
@Rockmeister: The price you pay as a customer in Japan isn't the price the distributor has to pay when he import the amplifier. He also doesn't have to pay VAT 2 times, so you have to subtract the VAT in Japan too.;)
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Do the Japanese levy VAT. I presume you are referring to a local equivalent? Do you know how much it would be?

The point Rockmeister is making is that, even before selling it, the import costs of the product to the distributor are probably close to, or higher than, the retail price in Japan. The take home message being that it is invidious to compare local Japanese price with UK price and assume this means gouging of the consumer by the UK retail chain.
 
Cereal Killer said:
Come on chaps, we all know UK retailers require an 80-100% markup on hi-end products... that's why the S/H & ex-dem market is so strong in comparison.
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I hope that's in jest. It may conceivably be true for some cable brands, perhaps, but for hardware, margins are as per normal quality consumer goods.
 
Rockmeister said:
UK import taxes are hideous. VAT + Import duty can add about 45% to the Japanese price (depending on the code) but an amp costing 5000 in Japan may have @2250 added to it on arrival here, and then you pay shipping ( £100?) and then the distributor has costs and the dealer wouldn't mind 30% profit either so??
5000 becomes 10000. Hideous situation all round.
I'm wondering now if a £2500 Brit made amp is therefore really in competition with a Japanese amp priced here at £5000?
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There are other factors as well. Many of the smaller Japanese companies have neither the resources or expertise to deal with international markets. A common model is to appoint a third-party agency, sometimes in Japan, but frequently Hong Kong. Obviously they're not doing it for the love of it.

Additionally, there's sometimes a 'double layer' of distribution, some companies have a central distribution/service hub (Germany seems a popular choice) who then supply individual country-specific distributors. The advantage I suppose is that returning a unit to Germany for service/repair is a lot bloody easier/cheaper than shipping it back to Japan, not least because of the potential communication issues. But they're looking to turn a profit as well.

So, yes, the price can end up significantly higher, which is unfortunate, but it doesn't mean any one company in the chain's making a killing or profiteering to an excessive degree.

As is often the case, those who know/think least about it are typically the ones making the loudest noise/speaking out of their arse.
 
Similar issues apply to American brands such as Magnepan. One of the reasons Maggies have never made huge inroads into the UK market is that historically they had no such thing as trade prices.

Maggie pricing for would be retailers in Yurp was basically the standard US price list sans purchase tax. Not difficult to see how they'd potentially be getting on for twice the price before anyone starts to make a sensible margin on them.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Do the Japanese levy VAT. I presume you are referring to a local equivalent? Do you know how much it would be?
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If I understood it right (I'm no native speaker) 8% @ google

Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
The point Rockmeister is making is that, even before selling it, the import costs of the product to the distributor are probably close to, or higher than, the retail price in Japan. The take home message being that it is invidious to compare local Japanese price with UK price and assume this means gouging of the consumer by the UK retail chain.
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I didn't deny that but it is a difference if you take the retail price for the customer or the price the distributor pays and add all the fees, VAT and so on.

As an example with no real numbers.

Price in Japan for customer: 5.000€ - 8% VAT = 4.600€ --> 4.600€ -100% margin (dealer) = 2.300€
Price in Germany for customer: 2.300€ + 7% duty = 2.461€ --> 2.461€ +100% margin (distributor) + 100% margin (dealer) + 19% VAT = 11.715€

Rockmeisters example was: 5.000€ + 7% duty = 5.350€ --> 5.350€ +100% margin (distributor) + 100% margin (dealer) + 19% VAT = 25.466€
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I hope that's in jest. It may conceivably be true for some cable brands, perhaps, but for hardware, margins are as per normal quality consumer goods.
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Even then... chances are that a dealer actually makes a bigger profit on an individual £100 interconnect than a UK manufacturer does. Even then, no-one's intently studying brochures for property in the Bahamas.

It wouldn't surprise me to see much of the lower end of the market move to a direct sales model, especially if we crash out of Europe with a no-deal Brexit and a scorched arse.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I hope that's in jest. It may conceivably be true for some cable brands, perhaps, but for hardware, margins are as per normal quality consumer goods.
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Unfortunately no jesting, I’d say 80% on average for hi-end electronics is the norm.

For example; how much do you recon a pair of ATC 50 ASLs really cost to build including ATCs profit?
 
Old Shatterhand said:
If I understood it right (I'm no native speaker) 8% @ google


I didn't deny that but it is a difference if you take the retail price for the customer or the price the distributor pays and add all the fees, VAT and so on.
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OK, so deduct 8% from £5k, that's, what, £4600. Then deduct the distributor margin, let's say 45%, so £2500, ball-park. Add-in Rocky's £2250-ish of tariffs, and shipping, and you're right back there at £5k, Japanese retail price. That's the cost to the distributor.
 
Cereal Killer said:
Unfortunately no jesting, I’d say 80% on average for hi-end electronics is the norm.
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You've evidently little experience of high end electronics retail then? I'm curious as to where you get your figure from. My understanding and experience is that dealer margins on high-end stuff like Accuphase, dCS, and so-on, is pretty much exactly the same as it is for more down to earth brands like Creek and Rega, and it's considerably less than half of your guess.
 
Cereal Killer said:
Unfortunately no jesting, I’d say 80% on average for hi-end electronics is the norm.
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I'd like to see your sums. And your definition of 'high end' in this context.

One way forward is evidenced in the increasing number of dealers who have become distributors/sole outlets in recent times. Potentially there's the opportunity to either trouser a double margin or if they so choose to at least use a bigger profit to facilitate a bit of 'wiggle room' in setting prices for the end user.

Accuphase are a prime recent example, now distributed by a UK dealer rather than a distributor of somewhat less than stellar performance.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
OK, so deduct 8% from £5k, that's, what, £4600. Then deduct the distributor margin, let's say 45%, so £2500, ball-park. Add-in Rocky's £2250-ish of tariffs, and shipping, and you're right back there at £5k, Japanese retail price. That's the cost to the distributor.
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You really think shipping costs, insurance and duty is 2.250€ for a 2.500€ product?:confused:
 
Cereal Killer said:
Unfortunately no jesting, I’d say 80% on average for hi-end electronics is the norm.

For example; how much do you recon a pair of ATC 50 ASLs really cost to build including ATCs profit?
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Now you've strayed into manufacturing cost, which is a completely separate issue.

Your original statement was "Come on chaps, we all know UK retailers require an 80-100% markup on hi-end products..."

Which is simply not true IME.

Can you provide one example where this is the case which is not already covered by the possible conflagration of circumstances already described?
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
E470 has now been superceded by the E480, so the E450 is well old, innit.

Edit, 2007 according to the Accuphase website!

Having heard how far the 480 improves on the 470, doing the audition with the old 450 does seem like a bit of an unfair fight. I'd at first assumed that PF made a typo when he mentioned the E450, but then he repeated it so either he was mistaken, or the dealer had some very, very old demo stock.
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I thought exactly the same. I've not herd the E480, but used to own the 470 which I really liked.
Mac
 
Old Shatterhand said:
Nice that you work this out, the post was about the bill from rockmeister not about the real VAT, duty and margin.:rolleyes:
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well old chap you might have quoted me properly then
I said UK retail outlet 30% profit and my maths added 10% for the distributor. You added %200.
My import duty isn't a fiction. Check UK customs advice on import duty on HiFi amplifiers (coded 8518 40 80 99).
I agree that the importer has not paid the same as a japanese shopper...my mistake there agreed.
 
@Sue Pertwee-Tyr I don't think even close to 2.250€.;)

German price for shipping a 30kg package to Japan is about 132€, let us add 68€ (which is quite high) for insurance, so we have 200€ for shipping "all in" (price for customers, no business prices)

https://www.dhl.de/de/privatkunden/pakete-versenden/weltweit-versenden/preise-international.html

Price for the product is 2.500€ + 200€ = 2.700€.

The highest VAT for electronics in Germany is 13,9%
VAT 13,9% for 2.700€ is 375,30€

https://www.paketda.de/ausland/zollrechner.php?action=submit&versandart=keingeschenk&betrag=2700

DHL takes 6€ for the custom handling

So the sum is 581,30€ not 2.250€. ;)
 
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