Did US Health Experts Sacrifice Their Credibility For Politics?

[vuk]

this is really thought provoking and confirms that glenn greenwald is one of the top 3 american journalists right now (within the pool of journalists we are aware of).

just a little note. at least watch the first 45 minutes (yeah, that's not trivial for a busy person like you) before you feel compelled to quibble with or go mental over something he said. there is a lot of devil's advocacy going on as he builds his main points of critique. if that's too much of your time, then it's best to just ignore the whole thing.

 

[Kirk]

Any chance of an Executive Summary?

 

[Stunsworth]

Any chance of an Executive Summary?

I’m guessing “Yes”.

 

[vuk]

Any chance of an Executive Summary?

at one point, health officials had a very strict position on staying at home and avoiding unnecessary social contact. it involved condemnation of right-wing protests. now that we are having, left-wing protests, the message from some has changed dramatically. glenn actually thinks the risks are worth it, but has issues with the "politicalization" of a health matter by people who should be exclusively concerned with science.

 

[KrisW]

Apologies, as I don't have the time to watch that, but the summary is an interesting point, so if you'll forgive me commenting on your summary rather than the piece...

I feel the clear politicisation was when the Republican state governors, particularly in the Southern states, disregarded medical advice and reduced restrictions far too early. COVID-19 hit the North-east and the coasts much earlier than the inland states, and really only New York, New Jersey and maybe Michigan were in any condition to start lifting restrictions by May. I have colleagues in Texas, and that state hadn't even hit its daily-new-cases peak before it began re-opening. Now, six weeks later, the daily new cases figure is still climbing, and what's worse is that those cases are cropping up in smaller, rural towns that are less able to handle them.

If state governments had followed the scientific advice, then the protests after George Floyd's death would have been at a time when most states were still under stay-home orders, and thus could have been as strongly and rightly condemned on public-health grounds as those by white right-wing activists who sought to have those measures scrapped.

However, a rally whose sole purpose is to oppose the public health measures does deserve more official condemnation than a rally for another purpose, even if still puts the public's health at risk. You can choose to risk your health by going to a BLM march or not, but the partially successful efforts of the right-wing protestors to lift measures early have increased the risk for all citizens.

 

[Tony L]

at one point, health officials had a very strict position on staying at home and avoiding unnecessary social contact. it involved condemnation of right-wing protests. now that we are having, left-wing protests, the message from some has changed dramatically. glenn actually thinks the risks are worth it, but has issues with the "politicalization" of a health matter by people who should be exclusively concerned with science.

I actually sat through over an hour and that is literally all he was arguing substance wise. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a “documentary” (actually a comment piece) more in need of professional editing than this. Fifteen minutes of content there absolute tops, stretched painfully out to one hour and forty-two minutes.

I usually steer well clear of the stuff you shovel onto pfm from YouTube etc, but given you have regularly heralded Glen Greenwald as some living truth oracle I thought I’d give it a look for the sake of balance. I’m not saying the point he is making is entirely without substance or merit, but it is one point (not the first time I’ve heard it made either), and it could have been made better and far more powerfully in a single well-written paragraph. I also notice his platform is paid for by the billionaire behind eBay (link). I’d have thought you’d be all ragey at that, though by saying that, Putin (I have nothing against eBay).

PS Spoiler warning: Greenwald does that highly irritating ‘rising pitch on the last word in each sentence’ thing. If you are bored, which you will be, you can count them.

 

[vuk]

Apologies, as I don't have the time to watch that, but the summary is an interesting point, so if you'll forgive me commenting on your summary rather than the piece...

it's not for me to forgive you, but given the brevity and inadequacy of my summary, you are -- in this context -- sort of barking up the wrong tree.

 

[KrisW]

I actually sat through over an hour and that is literally all he was arguing substance wise. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a “documentary” (actually a comment piece) more in need of professional editing than this. Fifteen minutes of content there absolute tops, stretched painfully out to one hour and forty-two minutes.

Ugh.

I have to contend with this quite often in my job, as some technology vendors now think that a video presentation is adequate substitute for a written document. It isn't.

For future reference, on YouTube, click the "cog" icon, and set the replay speed above 1.0x. I find that Americans talk really, really slowly when they're presenting, and 2.0x is often not fast enough (I wrote a podcast player app once, and I had to bump the maximum replay speed up to 2.5x after finding a couple of thoroughly glacial American podcasts among my test material)

That won't solve the issue of meandering, unstructured monologue, but it will at least make it pass faster.

Editors are the most underrated staff in any news organisation, but lots of writers seem to think that they don't need them.

 

[Kirk]

at one point, health officials had a very strict position on staying at home and avoiding unnecessary social contact. it involved condemnation of right-wing protests. now that we are having, left-wing protests, the message from some has changed dramatically. glenn actually thinks the risks are worth it, but has issues with the "politicalization" of a health matter by people who should be exclusively concerned with science.

Thanks. If I understand, Glenn thinks that some in the medical community are using the virus as a vehicle to express their personal political beliefs, in this instance: right-wingers shouldn't be protesting because of the virus yet it is okay for BLM to protest despite the virus thus implying that the BLK matter cause is more virtuous than the right-wing cause. If he is right, one could reasonable argue that the offending public health experts are not only undermining their own expertise but are also unwittingly supporting the Trump narrative which seeks to downplay the virus on a daily basis.

You mention that you think Glenn is one of the top three American journalists rights now. Why is he, and who are the other two?

 

[Tony L]

The thing I felt wasn’t covered in the hour I could be arsed sitting through was that the #BLM thing is just so huge, just so global any prospect of local state-lockdown outside of a full-on dictatorship was pretty much impossible (though Trump certainly used police state brutality to clear protestors for his cheesy photo op). This is a simply huge global protest and no amount of intellectualising or post-rationalising will alter that.

I also suspect that the vast if not overwhelming majority of healthcare professionals are on the liberal/compassionate side of the map, so if asked a simplistic question such as ‘do you support #BLM?’ pretty much everyone would answer ‘hell yes!’. I know Greenwald managed to dig up a couple of examples that were rather more than that, but in the grand scheme of things I felt he was trying way too hard to fit facts to his own interpretations. I also noticed he cited one highly atypical piece of drone footage from the UK, an exceptionally rare example of the police actually policing a few folk driving to a beach or whatever in lockdown, again failing to acknowledge that #BLM is just *way* too big to be policed outside of a real dictatorship. I see no right/left conspiracy here, just that #BLM is such a huge outpouring of rage, such a huge civil rights movement that not even sensible medical advice at the height of a global pandemic could contain it.

From a UK perspective it is also worth noting that lockdown had failed well prior to the #BLM thing arriving. Our government lost control of the Covid 19 situation a very long time ago, in fact I’d argue they never had a real grip on it at all. I suspect the US was just the same, certainly Cuomo’s grip on NYC was waining well before the protests hit. I don’t know whether Greenwald looked at any countries that really did deal with C19 superbly well such as New Zealand, nor do I know what happened with #BLM there. That would be interesting to know. I may eventually watch the remaining 40 minutes, but it just didn’t keep me interested at all. I have a very short attention-span; just make your point, show me the facts and then STFU!

 

[Kirk]

The thing I felt wasn’t covered in the hour I could be arsed sitting through was that the #BLM thing is just so huge, just so global any prospect of local state-lockdown outside of a full-on dictatorship was pretty much impossible (though Trump certainly used police state brutality to clear protestors for his cheesy photo op). This is a simply huge global protest and no amount of intellectualising or post-rationalising will alter that.

I also suspect that the vast if not overwhelming majority of healthcare professionals are on the liberal/compassionate side of the map, so if asked a simplistic question such as ‘do you support #BLM?’ pretty much everyone would answer ‘hell yes!’. I know Greenwald managed to dig up a couple of examples that were rather more than that, but in the grand scheme of things I felt he was trying way too hard to fit facts to his own interpretations. I also noticed he cited one highly atypical piece of drone footage from the UK, an exceptionally rare example of the police actually policing a few folk driving to a beach or whatever in lockdown, again failing to acknowledge that #BLM is just *way* too big to be policed outside of a real dictatorship. I see no right/left conspiracy here, just that #BLM is such a huge outpouring of rage, such a huge civil rights movement that not even sensible medical advice at the height of a global pandemic could contain it.

From a UK perspective it is also worth noting that lockdown had failed well prior to the #BLM thing arriving. Our government lost control of the Covid 19 situation a very long time ago, in fact I’d argue they never had a real grip on it at all. I suspect the US was just the same, certainly Cuomo’s grip on NYC was waining well before the protests hit. I don’t know whether Greenwald looked at any countries that really did deal with C19 superbly well such as New Zealand, nor do I know what happened with #BLM there. That would be interesting to know. I may eventually watch the remaining 40 minutes, but it just didn’t keep me interested at all. I have a very short attention-span; just make your point, show me the facts and then STFU!

The modern political podcaster is well versed in the art of extrapolating a trend from a small sample.

RE: BLM, it feels like a tipping point of sorts has been reached but Trump (and Johnson) will slow down or halt altogether any attempt at meaningful change.

 

[Seanm]

I can’t watch the video so can’t engage with the specific argument, but this article makes some interesting points about the broader objections to the protests:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...cism-protests-coronavirus-rise-covid-19-cases

In short, that the protests are outside and mobile reduces risks, as does the use of masks; many of those protesting will be facing riskier situations every day at work; the health dangers faced by BAME people as a result of racism/Covid represent an immediate problem that requires immediate action.

 

[vuk]

Why is he, and who are the other two?

he's very meticulous, doesn't play word games and has the sort of non-emotivistic logical rigour that is at the level of scientific debate, which is where i find most journalism falls apart.

the other two i would put up there right now are max blumenthal and thomas frank. if we consider long-form journalism, then naomi klein arguably tops everyone.

 

[DimitryZ]

Most red states opened well before the virus actually arrived there. It has now. In Massachusetts, the peak has past and we are slowly and cautiously reopening.

The bit about BLM protests (I am picking up some britishisms on this forum), is that a highly disproportionate number of Covid victims are minority populations. A case can well be made that the prorests are against the systemic aspects that are killing black peoples - by police and by the virus.

And they are outdoors with large majorities smartly wearing masks, so they are as low risk as possible. My town had a big one organized by high school and college age youth - held at the HS stadium - very well attended but not crowded, or "cheek to jowl" as my late father-in-law used to say. He past from Covid at 95 two weeks ago. God rest his soul - I will always remember his stories about life in America before the war and his fighting with 101 airborne division all the way to Berlin.

My late mother-in-law and him were my American family - who welcomed a Russian immigrant into their lives without reservation. They truly were the Great Generation.

 

[Kirk]

Most red states opened well before the virus actually arrived there. It has now. In Massachusetts, the peak has past and we are slowly and cautiously reopening.

The bit about BLM protests (I am picking up some britishisms on this forum), is that a highly disproportionate number of Covid victims are minority populations. A case can well be made that the prorests are against the systemic aspects that are killing black peoples - by police and by the virus.

And they are outdoors with large majorities smartly wearing masks, so they are as low risk as possible. My town had a big one organized by high school and college age youth - held at the HS stadium - very well attended but not crowded, or "cheek to jowl" as my late father-in-law used to say. He past from Covid at 95 two weeks ago. God rest his soul - I will always remember his stories about life in America before the war and his fighting with 101 airborne division all the way to Berlin.

My late mother-in-law and him were my American family - who welcomed a Russian immigrant into their lives without reservation. They truly were the Great Generation.

Would you say Charlie Baker has done a good job then?

 

[GruntPuppy]

Of course they did - and so did ours.

 

[DimitryZ]

Would you say Charlie Baker has done a good job then?

I think he has...time will tell.